Test breeding Silver Fox herd

[terrigerth]

I am still relatively new to rabbits in general, my two breeds (Rex and Silver Fox), and genetics. I've had some funky kits show up in the Silver Fox nest boxes and have decided to take a few years to sort out what genetics I might be dealing with as well as how they interact to produce showable Silver Fox. Here is an album of pics to go with this narrative.

The first funky was a litter with what I called the "Mama Ran Out of Toner" kit which has since been named Two Tone. The lighter areas (butt end) was heavily silvered as soon as the fur grew and remained far more silvered up until late junior fur when he evened out to a normal amount of silvering throughout his coat. However, he is far more matted than any of my other SF leading me to wonder if he has increased wool modifiers. I have kept this buck for test breeding with a castor Rex doe. The litter is now 10 days old and appears to have at least one gold tipped steel kit in the mix.

The second funky is a litter born in March 2016. The dam is a black Silver Fox, sire is a REW Silver Fox. Both parents are totally unrelated to the parents of the kit above. The litter of four kits contained three that appeared to be harlequin at birth due to the mottled skin tones. Again, as soon as the fur began to develop, the kits were heavily silvered causing them to appear like junior Champagne kits. They are currently 7 weeks old and have maintained this extreme silvering to date.

I have asked long time SF breeders to help me understand what is happening that caused these kits to be different but they are not able to answer the question. Because I'm a nerd, I must know. So, I've been gathering as many reasonable suggestions as possible including the steel gene, silvering gene, wool gene, and sable coloring. It could be a combination of any or all of those and others not yet identified. Any help in my search and understanding will be much appreciated. BUT, please do not just guess. If you have no clue, feel free to follow to gain information. This rabbit hole is plenty deep and wide as it is. In case I messed up the pics, here's attempt two to link them. https://www.facebook.com/terri.browning.754/media_set?set=a.10208257816621953.1073741854.1199174180&type=3

 

[alforddm]

I hope you don't mind, I decided to add a couple of your pics to the thread in hopes of getting a better response.

I've tried finding some information on silvering and, like akane said in the other thread, I can't find anything in English. Not even old breeding studies like WE Castle did back in the day. I really don't think this is related to steel. I think this is a different type of silvering but it's interesting that they are silvering so early.

"Two Tone" born 10/30 to two black SF parents. The blue doe kit next to him appears to have some of the same issue.

Two tone at 5 days old. Already silvered.

Two tone at 2 weeks old.

The oddly marked kits are on either side (although the chicken butt is blocking the one on the left). The other two kits are an opal Rex and the one normally marked black kit in the SF litter.

One of the heavily silvered kits at 4 weeks old.

She's set the album to public so you should be able to see all the pics, if you have a facebook account. There are quite a few pics and she's added information to each one.
https://www.facebook.com/terri.browning ... 180&type=3 <br /><br /> __________ Tue May 10, 2016 6:27 am __________ <br /><br /> Oh, and I just thought of this... The KIT gene can alter base color. Classic roan in horses is a KIT gene mutations. It looks like this..

As you can see it does look quite similar right down to the dark head on the horse to the dark nose on the rabbit.

Other KIT gene mutations in horses are known for altering the base color a bit, giving it a washed out look.

It is possible, that what we are seeing is a KIT gene mutation and that it does affect the body color of the rabbit when they are young. However, there is just so much that we don't know and without being able to find information in English? That's all I've got. I don't know if it's known type of silvering that has been bred into the silver fox gene pool (most likely) or if this is something new (pretty unlikely but more fun).

 

[Dood]

I'm thinking it is the d'argent silvering gene which tends to make blochier silver spots in kits

I also wonder if silver is effected at all by the harequin gene :mrgreen: and wonder if the kit is - aa B_ C_ D_ Eej :hmm:

 

[terrigerth]

Yet another gene to research, thanks! Google is my friend (most days, other days not so much). I hadn't considered a random harlequin gene. But, I happen to also breed harli/tri in Rex and can test for it! It has been mentioned by a couple of other people when I've asked around but always seemed so far fetched. But, wouldn't hurt to check. I'll add it to my list. (Now I'm wishing I still had my harlequinized opal buck...)

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

That is really interesting! I am very interested to see what you end up with. the heavy silvering is really pretty.

 

[skysthelimit]

Zass is somewhere out there, and has a pretty extensive thread on SF mishaps and odd genes. I wish I could do an earburn.

 

[Zass]

Zass is somewhere out there, and has a pretty extensive thread on SF mishaps and odd genes. I wish I could do an earburn.

IMO, more than one breeder has probably introduced a bit of champagne blood in the lines to increase silvering, so that isn't really unexpected.
I think I remember seeing an old thread where someone found a kit with a shaded color, and another mentioning both wool and harlequin showing up. I know one line I saw on facebook threw torts!

Thankfully, mine only had rew, chocolate(which I found desirable), and hidden steel genes.

It's just opinion on my part, but I strongly doubt that harlequin ej affects the placement of si silvering. Silvering seems to follow the rules that most white pattern genes follow, where it seems to overlay any coat color, except bew or rew which hide it. White patten genes being things like dutch, vienna, broken, and silvering.

The other extension related genes, Es, E, and e also do not affect any of the white patten genes.

The interesting part about ej is that it IS affected by the presence of white patterns, even though it's presence doesn't affect the white.

Now I have to wonder... If du and v can created checkered bands, and en makes spots. What might si do to ej?

 

[alforddm]

It's just opinion on my part, but I strongly doubt that harlequin ej affects the placement of si silvering. Silvering seems to follow the rules that most white pattern genes follow, where it seems to overlay any coat color, except bew or rew which hide it. White patten genes being things like dutch, vienna, broken, and silvering.

I would agree that silvering is a white pattern. If fact, if it happens to be a KIT gene mutation, like roan in horses, then a rabbit should not be able to be homozygous for both broken and silvering. That could be a truly fascinating breeding study if someone wanted to try it. It could actaully help geneticist locate the mutation. To bad I don't have access to silvered rabbits.

There have been really really rare cases of a horse being homozygous for one KIT gene mutation, and also having another (there are over 20 known KIT gene mutations in horses). However, it requires some interesting genetic crossover stuff to happen.

 

[Zass]

It's just opinion on my part, but I strongly doubt that harlequin ej affects the placement of si silvering. Silvering seems to follow the rules that most white pattern genes follow, where it seems to overlay any coat color, except bew or rew which hide it. White patten genes being things like dutch, vienna, broken, and silvering.

I would agree that silvering is a white pattern. If fact, if it happens to be a KIT gene mutation, like roan in horses, then a rabbit should not be able to be homozygous for both broken and silvering. That could be a truly fascinating breeding study if someone wanted to try it. It could actually help geneticist locate the mutation. To bad I don't have access to silvered rabbits.

Now I'm getting really curious. :roll: Anyone have a spare champagne buck I could play with? :mrgreen: I'm pretty sure I could get a broken colored mutt anywhere. Champagne silvering seems to be more predictable, and thus easier to work with than most Silver Fox silvering.

I could test breed with the harlequins after I play around with the broken pattern. :lol:

 

[twr]

Don't forget that En is proven to be a KIT mutation, so in principle it is fairly straightforward to look for interactions between KIT and silvering with the right pairings.

I think there have been two distinct suggestions made above:
1. That the modified silvering seen by terrigerth is due to KIT.
2. That conventional silvering is due (at least in part) to KIT.

I expected Robinson would have information on linkage between silvering and english spotting that would answer the second of these but sadly it doesn't.

I'd be a little surprised if there were an interaction between ej and silvering because the ej pattern is fixed before birth while the silver pattern develops later.

 

[alforddm]

One thing that I don't think we have really discussed is why the kit called Two Tone, was born such an odd color, and why he silvered so early?

Is that something that every happens in d'argent rabbits?

 

[skysthelimit]

I'd be a little surprised if there were an interaction between ej and silvering because the ej pattern is fixed before birth while the silver pattern develops later.

I hadn't thought about that. <br /><br /> __________ Fri May 13, 2016 1:46 pm __________ <br /><br />

One thing that I don't think we have really discussed is why the kit called Two Tone, was born such an odd color, and why he silvered so early?

Is that something that every happens in d'argent rabbits?

the earliest I've ever had a kit begin to silver out is 4 weeks. But it seemed to stop and it was never a really heavy silvering.

But then again I've had SF kits born with large white spots at birth that never went away, and one with a white foot that never went away. I wonder if those could qualify as silvering early?

 

[Zass]

I can add, the kit that looks like a gts is a gts. So far as I can tell, steel is fairly prevalent in Sf. It's not even a little bit unexpected at this point.

Some of those kits look a lot like champagnes, but I don't really know what champagne kits look like. :? I know they are born black and silver later, but I don't know just how soon that would be. Perhaps they silver sooner then SF?
Anyone have pics of typical champagne d'argent litters?

I swear there was someone on here that had something like a siamese sable in their SF litters too. Trying to find the thread..

 

[skysthelimit]

I can add, the kit that looks like a gts is a gts. So far as I can tell, steel is fairly prevalent in Sf. It's not even a little bit unexpected at this point.

Some of those kits look a lot like champagnes, but I don't really know what champagne kits look like. :? I know they are born black and silver later, but I don't know just how soon that would be. Perhaps they silver sooner then SF?
Anyone have pics of typical champagne d'argent litters?

I swear there was someone on here that had something like a siamese sable in their SF litters too. Trying to find the thread..

silver-fox-harlequin-t15411.html <br /><br /> __________ Sat May 14, 2016 8:56 am __________ <br /><br />

I know they are born black and silver later, but I don't know just how soon that would be. Perhaps they silver sooner then SF?

According to the website, they start silvering around 3 mos. Seems later than SF, at least in my herd.

 

[terrigerth]

Sorry it took me so long to get back to this thread. Typically, a SF kit begins silvering as its junior coat grows in to replace the baby coat. They should appear to be black (or blue, chocolate, lilac, or REW) for at least the first two months. When I consulted with a group of Champagne breeders, they said their kits are expected to do the same of the SF kits. So the kits who appear silvered from birth are an anomaly for breeds with the silvering gene. Here is a current pic of the two kits who were born heavily silvered.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater
They are now 10 weeks old and the silvering on their bodies is much more even although still heavy for their age. Their heads are still very strangely colored but could change in time.

 

[alforddm]

Thanks for the update on these.

 

[Zass]

Is there any way to get even more pics? opcorn:

 

[ADinWNC]

I have Champagnes. My kits are solid colored for the first 4-6 weeks. Their silvering works up from the edge of the belly in irregular/blotches. My Silver Foxes get their silvering in one individual hair at a time.

Zass & alforddm I have a few Champagnes that I am going to process at the end of June. They will be 11 wks old. Do you want me to see if I have a male for you to use in your breeding program?

 

[Zass]

I have Champagnes. My kits are solid colored for the first 4-6 weeks. Their silvering works up from the edge of the belly in irregular/blotches. My Silver Foxes get their silvering in one individual hair at a time.

Zass & alforddm I have a few Champagnes that I am going to process at the end of June. They will be 11 wks old. Do you want me to see if I have a male for you to use in your breeding program?

You know that offer is all kinds of tempting for me.
I could breed to harlequin and broken to see what happens. I'm already fairly certain that harlequin will not affect the pattern, but the bit about broken and KIT mutations is very interesting. I'd actually like a booted broken to play with for maximum color expression...
Vienna would not work, since it isn't a KIT mutation, right?

 

[alforddm]

Vienna would not work, since it isn't a KIT mutation, right?

Vienna hasn't been located for sure, but due to the blue eyes it probably isn't a KIT gene. Due to the way KIT functions, KIT gene mutations usually leave the eyes brown even if the rest of the animal is white. Stranger things have happened but at this point I think it's "probably" not a KIT gene mutation.

Zass & alforddm I have a few Champagnes that I am going to process at the end of June. They will be 11 wks old. Do you want me to see if I have a male for you to use in your breeding program?

Thank you for the offer but I'm all the way out in Oklahoma =(.