Show Quality vs not - Your standard

[trinityoaks]

I have to make one small correction. Not EVERY breed has an SOP, because there are breeds that are not recognized by ARBA.

 

[ZRabbits]

I have to make one small correction. Not EVERY breed has an SOP, because there are breeds that are not recognized by ARBA.

So true. I have Double Mane Lion heads, who are not recognized by ARBA. But many people who have brought this breed to where it is and have worked hard to get it there and I plan to honor that standard. I wouldn't want to harm any other breeder's program by saying they are show quality if they are not. Want to see this breed succeed and become recognized.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

I have to make one small correction. Not EVERY breed has an SOP, because there are breeds that are not recognized by ARBA.

True, but since we are talking about what is show quality, only those breeds that are showable or have working standards are the focus here. Lion heads are looking for acceptance, and they have a working standard, and can be shown at some shows.

 

[trinityoaks]

True, but since we are talking about what is show quality, only those breeds that are showable or have working standards are the focus here.

You're right about that, but some blanket statements have been made in this thread about ALL rabbits, and I wanted to clarify.

 

[ZRabbits]

I have to make one small correction. Not EVERY breed has an SOP, because there are breeds that are not recognized by ARBA.

True, but since we are talking about what is show quality, only those breeds that are showable or have working standards are the focus here. Lion heads are looking for acceptance, and they have a working standard, and can be shown at some shows.

Well isn't a working standard still a goal for show quality?

It is a shame though, recently shows are shutting out Lion heads because of non-acceptance. How can you be accepted if you can't show? Just don't get it.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

The acceptance process is not dependent on local shows. The rabbits and COD holders must appear at Nationals for three consecutive years. At this point REW, Black and Tort are at the 2nd try at 2nd showing, and the other varieties are not eligible yet. Either the breedings or the people are not consistent. Then it becomes up to the discretion of local clubs and I assume the Lionhead clubs who make the sanctions whether or not they show at local shows.

 

[ZRabbits]

The acceptance process is not dependent on local shows. The rabbits and COD holders must appear at Nationals for three consecutive years. At this point REW, Black and Tort are at the 2nd try at 2nd showing, and the other varieties are not eligible yet. Either the breedings or the people are not consistent. Then it becomes up to the discretion of local clubs and I assume the Lionhead clubs who make the sanctions whether or not they show at local shows.

Yep, you are correct regarding what's going on with the Lion head acceptance. The clubs are focusing on Black, Torts, REW's. Actually sticking to Black Family. (Sable, Chestnut, Orange, Seal, Silver Marten) Tri, harli, are considered odd colors or exception to the rule of Black won't be considered until the acceptance of Black. Not that some Lion Head breeders aren't experimenting with the Harli and Tri. I've read in the Lion Head Fourth District, a breeder is working on tri.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

Yep, you are correct regarding what's going on with the Lion head acceptance. The clubs are focusing on Black, Torts, REW's. Actually sticking to Black Family. (Sable, Chestnut, Orange, Seal, Silver Marten) Tri, harli, are considered odd colors or exception to the rule of Black won't be considered until the acceptance of Black. Not that some Lion Head breeders aren't experimenting with the Harli and Tri. I've read in the Lion Head Fourth District, a breeder is working on tri.

Karen

Tris and harlies are complicated pretty much in every breed, my struggle continues. Hopefully my tri factored mini rex will give me some success with that.

 

[SatinsRule]

I know there is a difference here, and I've skirted the issue by giving into the rabbitosis and deciding to keep my WHOLE LITTER and probably my whole brand new litter too, but how do you decide what's show quality? Obviously, the closer to the SoP, the better, but you can't only show perfect rabbits.

Let's say I sold a rabbit with no DQ's as show quality, would that be unethical? Where do you draw the line with your rabbits and how do you make that decision? How do you deal with your "show quality" being at a different level from someone else's "show quality?"

I'm chiming in on this one rather late, but here is how I go about it.

The entire picture that is a rabbit is best likened to a house or other building. The foundation and structure are primary and everything else in the picture is subordinate to it. The structure and foundation on a rabbit are it's type and bone structure. If those are lacking in any way, the rest of it will fall apart in short order as it makes its way through generations of development, and this is where judges so often misjudge rabbits, particularly when looking at breeds like Satins and focus primarily on fur. Yes, fur is what sets a Satin or Rex or Angora or...you get the point...apart from other breeds, but absent of solid type, they are literally just hollow shells of what they should be and IMHO would best be likened to fur pelts sitting on piles of excrement. I will keep a rabbit with solid type around alot longer than I will ever do so in regards to rabbits which have good fur but are lacking in type. You can introduce good fur on most any breed in 1-2 generations, but you'd be hard-pressed to do the same with improving rabbit lines with poor type in 3+ generations. Things like severely pinched HQ's, weak head and ears, low or narrow shoulders, lack of rise at the loin are all very difficult to correct over time, and you will slaughter way more rabbits than you ever bring to a show table and win with if you ignore type.

As for selling rabbits with DQ's, I'd have to look at the nature of the DQ. Something like a miscolored toenail is a margin call, as those rabbits can be very significant contributors in developing brokens if everything else is in place or if it displays traits which contribute to the overall improvement of a broken line. Eye color? A different story, mainly because that is something which will keep reinventing itself over time. This is why I wish the distinction between a DQ and an elimination had never been grouped and blurred. Too often, new breeders will go from a show room to their home and cull a rabbit which has been DQ'd because they think it's uncorrectable. Again, it depends upon the nature of the DQ, a line which never would have been blurred under the standards of today versus those of 30 years ago.

 

[AnnClaire]

Satin,

I so agree with you and others who advocate that the conformation (structure) of the breed is paramont to having a show quality vs. brood quality. In the fiber breeds, yes, density and composition of coat are part of the standard, but if the bone structure or conformation isn't there, then 3-, 5-, 7-inches of fiber aren't going to put the points back in the conformation column. But, I understand that does happen and I am struggling with which juniors to take to Wichita.

I have several with the doe's fault of pointed hips and her very good density of fiber. Some have the buck's fault of not-as-dense fiber with his very good conformation. I will probably take all with good fiber and good conformation just to get a professional assessment so I can decide which to keep for breeding.

The issue I have is that the doe was sold as "show quality" and I had to have her transported without having the chance to put my hands on her. With the prominent fault of the pointed hips, IMHO this doe should never have been listed as "show quality," but rather as "brood quality with the following fault: pointed hips."

Of course, I cannot afford a Betty Chou angora, but since hers don't blow their coats, I am not sure I really want one either

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Satin,

I so agree with you and others who advocate that the conformation (structure) of the breed is paramont to having a show quality vs. brood quality. In the fiber breeds, yes, density and composition of coat are part of the standard, but if the bone structure or conformation isn't there, then 3-, 5-, 7-inches of fiber aren't going to put the points back in the conformation column. But, I understand that does happen and I am struggling with which juniors to take to Wichita.

I have several with the doe's fault of pointed hips and her very good density of fiber. Some have the buck's fault of not-as-dense fiber with his very good conformation. I will probably take all with good fiber and good conformation just to get a professional assessment so I can decide which to keep for breeding.

The issue I have is that the doe was sold as "show quality" and I had to have her transported without having the chance to put my hands on her. With the prominent fault of the pointed hips, IMHO this doe should never have been listed as "show quality," but rather as "brood quality with the following fault: pointed hips."

Of course, I cannot afford a Betty Chou angora, but since hers don't blow their coats, I am not sure I really want one either

I'm gonna be totally, brutally honest here: that's part of why I have zero interest in showing my Angoras. Their beautiful coats can hide so much, I'm sure I'd pay show-quality prices and get less than that, and so I don't bother. I know not all breeders would do that but until I buy the rabbit how would I know??? Besides, I want them for the fiber, not the showing. The Champagnes can go show instead.

 

[AnnClaire]

Kyle,

I hear you loud and clear! When I bought this doe, my main need was for fiber density and I made the choice to accept the conformation I was going to get since I couldn't put my hands on the bun. However, I am taking a few $$ to Wichita to pick up another doe to complete my breeding trio. That one will not have a conformation issue

 

[Dreamerz]

put my hands on the bun.

I know I editted this way down, but this part of what you said is so important. A lot of times you can't really tell what your getting without being hands on, especially with long hairred breeds.


*side note* I also like the term "Show Potential" over show quality, especially when talking about a younger rabbit. A lot can happen between 8 wks (youngest selling age) & 4 or 5 months (possible first show age) that may cause it to not be showable. I had this happen with a puppy I sold once as Show Quality & a judge recommended "Show Potential" on all further contracts.

 

[skysthelimit]

*side note* I also like the term "Show Potential" over show quality, especially when talking about a younger rabbit. A lot can happen between 8 wks (youngest selling age) & 4 or 5 months (possible first show age) that may cause it to not be showable. I had this happen with a puppy I sold once as Show Quality & a judge recommended "Show Potential" on all further contracts.

I don't offer anything as show or not show, not dogs or rabbits. The buyer gets to tell me what they want, then they pick out what they want out of the ones I think are "breedable". If they want to show it, then that is on them.