No More Charlies

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TheLittleBunny10":2mqrce6z said:
whats a charlie?
A "charlie' is a rabbit that normally has color-- but when a 'broken' pattern exists, the color is less than 10% of the coat.

White foals have issues with colons not being complete-- In white dogs and cats, the hairs that are 'brittle' are usually absent-- within the cochlea-- the organ that transfers vibrations into the nervous system of the brain. In France, some dog breeds, known for 'lethal white' actually have breed standards that require coloring on the ears and certain parts of the head-- supposedly, this reduces the incidence of deafness..
 
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Frosted Rabbits":akhe06an said:
TheLittleBunny10":akhe06an said:
whats a charlie?
A "charlie' is a rabbit that normally has color-- but when a 'broken' pattern exists, the color is less than 10% of the coat.

White foals have issues with colons not being complete-- In white dogs and cats, the hairs that are 'brittle' are usually absent-- within the cochlea-- the organ that transfers vibrations into the nervous system of the brain. In France, some dog breeds, known for 'lethal white' actually have breed standards that require coloring on the ears and certain parts of the head-- supposedly, this reduces the incidence of deafness..

so is it like that for BEW and REW?
 
some dog breeds, known for 'lethal white'

Merle IS the 'lethal white' gene and should NEVER be crossed with another merle because any pups who get two copies (about 25%) will be stillborn, die shortly after birth or have birth defects such as deafness, blindness and internal defects as well.

Thankfully merle is dominant so you can see if a dog carries the trait.

Breeds who come in merle are
-australian shepherds
-border collies
-australian cattle dogs
-shelties
-rough and smooth coated collies
-welsh corgies
-english cocker spaniels
-leopard dogs
-alapaha blue bulldog
-great danes (including the harlequin variety)
-dachshunds
-chihuahua
and crosses of these breeds

Sorry if I hijacked the post, but I helped foster a double merle pup and it broke my heart that if the people had know about the dangers of breeding merles, she wouldn't have been born this way and could have been a healthy pup.
 

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I have not had any real problems with my heavily marked brokens.

It can be like that for REW, I have had digestive problems with them, but thy tend to have the best fur in the Rex and JW for me.
 
Whenever looking at dog breeds, they list common health problems.

So rabbit breeds have the same common issues per rabbit..but it is more commonly color related. be an interesting study for sure...
 
Both BEW and REW are forms of albinoism,and Himalayan as well. Albinos of any kind tend to be less hardy and have problems because of the loss of pigment, however certain rabbit breeds have been carefully bred for healthiness and so breeds like Californians and NZW are hail and hearty. BEW Mini Rex have immune issues because they are all closely related, and need to be bred out to healthier colors. I've noticed that a BEW out of two vienna carriers or that has a vienna carrier as one parent is healthier than a BEW out of two BEW's. Its going to take time to breed them out to healthier lines.

Charlies are a different situation, their problems stem from extreme white spotting. This is seen in other species too, dogs with deafness, horses with gut problems, 'Lethal White Overo' that Frosted mentioned, its a white foal out of high white parents, and there's something wrong with its intestines and it dies. This seems to be part of the problem with Charley rabbits, something wrong with the digestive system.

Now Albino's can have eye problems, and in the case of cats be deaf, but gut problems vary with species and rabbit breed. Its the white factoring that causes most of the deafness problems, such as in Dalmations. Dals are not white dogs with spots, they are black dogs with extreme white spotting and 40% of the breed is estimated to be deaf in one or both ears. So albinoism and high white factoring can cause similiar problems but are not the same.

Merle is also completely different, its a gene that acts like bleach on pigment, diluting the original color. Merle is NOT dominant its an incomplete dominant, meaning that one parent has to be it to get it, and not all puppies will be merles. Merle is NOT a 'Lethal White' gene, double merle puppies do not just die, nor are they always affected, that is completely incorrect. In certain breeds without white factoring like doxies double merles can be born perfectly normal, there were actually a number of AKC Champion double merle doxies before the DCA banned them from the show ring. They had perfectly normal hearing and sight, and had minimal white on them.

Its when you add white factoring to merleing that you get the worst defects, combining these two pigment changers wreaks havoc,causing a lack of eyes, small eyes, blindness and deafness. The breeds most effected are those with high white in them, shelties, danes, aussies, collies. Double merles have been said to have shorter life spans by possibly two years or so, but many are hale and hearty into their teens.

Merle CAN hid, oh yes it can, often an experienced eye can see it but sometimes not- thats why the term 'Cryptic Merle' was coined, because some dogs are merles and show no signs. There is a DNA test for merles now because of this.

In my breed double merles are an important part of the breed and have been very influential, the number one Blue Merle sheltie ever had a DM mother. He's still number one, been dead over 20 years. No, folks who don't know any better shouldn't be breeding them but in dogs one shouldn't breed dilutes to each other either, color dilution Alopecia isn't very pretty. You should know your genetics prior to breeding, regardless of species. Some folks just shouldn't breed anything, or have kids either.

Not picking on anyone, but merle is my color, its what I do, its what I know. Yes horrible defects can occur, but merle alone is not the monster gene, you have to add white factoring to it to really pump up it up, and white factoring can cause deafness and eye problems all on its own- a single merle gene does not do that. White factoring is the bigger threat than merle is.

Look Maggie, I made paragraphs!!
 
No you don't get bad results breeding BEW to BEW, you may get rabbits with poor immune systems, breeding colored vienna carriers into your BEW seems to improve their overall health. Problem was that many were not wanting to keep and feed vienna carriers, who often cannot be shown, so they would breed only BEW to BEW for many generations, and often doing tight line breeding as well because the numbers were so limited. I am a dedicated linebreeder, I breed very tightly, and often get awesome results. However I had to change my outlook when I got the BEW, I did nothing but outcrosses to non-BEW lines to improve health, fur and conformation. I'm still doing it, the gene pool needs to be wider.
 
vienna marked buns will have a white mark on them somewhere

this black kit has a white snip on his nose
justindoingthomasalllittersinear-17.jpg


the most likely thing is getting a solid coloured bunny that has a snip on the nose, a star on the head.. those buns are vienna marked. Spots on the toes, white toenails, etc. Basically white colour when it doesn't belong. Or a solid black bunny with blue eyes. now that's a STRIKING animal. :)

A vienna carrier is harder to tell. I had a sable point buck that way back in it's ped had blue eyes. He occasionally would throw these lovely kits and out of a litter of say ten torts..would give me one or two with a nose snip or blue eyes. Irritating as nine times out of ten it would the sharpest kit in the litter.
 
Dood":2jt0vvez said:
.The sheep here are having problems with copper because of the water

I had heard sheep have trouble clearing copper. Do you know if black or chocolate sheep are susceptible? I know white goats don't seem to have a problem.

A huge source of copper contamination is manure from swine operations. The metal is added to their feed as an 'natural' anti parasitic. The manure is them spread on fields as 'natural' fertilizer and the copper makes it way into the water supply. The plants in the field also absorb an abnormally high amount of the mineral and if the crop is alfalfa or hay and then fed to sheep the poor animals get a double whammy from water and food!

With more people wanting antibiotic free meat, I can only see the copper levels increasing all sorts of animal feeds and in turn ending up in 'natural' fertilizers and the sheep industry suffering.

Don't know about color, but know the sheep here are having problems with copper overload. I would think the goats here too.

And unfortunately it's not the swine operations or fertilizer that is affecting our water. It's much more than that. New Jersey was considered a dump back in the 40's to the 60's. Everything was dumped here. Our water contains not only metals, but pharmecueticals, kemotherapy, Viagra, and nuclear wastes. This is where the Feds dumped everything, including nuclear war heads. So our aquifers are completely useless without serving the water prior to useage. And the wells here, they have already passed legislation that by 2014, ALL wells much be shut down and all hooked up to Public water, which BTW gets half it's supply from the Delaware River, another Gem of water quality, haha. And with the public water, you get loads of chlorine. That's why we went full RO system. Taking a shower that burns your skin, this will happen no more. Our animals get clean water. And have to say the wildlife knows we have clean water. My husband turns the sprinkler on, and loads of birds, and I mean loads of birds and wildlife flock to our yard.

Karen
 
Vienna marked can also be silvered, thats what I've found with mine, its kinda neat. They can also have blue spots in their eyes, or completely blue eyes as Ladysown mentioned. I had the neatest little blue tort with blue eyes, he was very striking.

Dood thanks for posting that study. I liked that they broke down the dogs into breeds, as the breeds not known for high white or piebald along with the merle gene did not show deafness. The breeds that are known for white factoring collies, shelties, aussies, danes were the ones found to be deaf, confirming what the breeding community has thought all along, that adding white factoring to merle increases defects. That in itself deserves its own study. Catahoulas are a mixed bag, and are a bit of a wild card to have included in the study. As chihuahuas and doxies often are non-white factored they didn't come up as deaf at all. I liked also that they debunked the Reetz study, and that the percentage of deafness in double merles was so much lower than always touted, that was a nice surprize. Wish they would do a much larger study with higher numbers, and include eye defects as well as deafness. As merle keeps being added to more and more breeds it would be beneficial, and hopefully would help educate more people. Thanks again.

Sorry, went OT, but it is still about high white factoring.
 
Carriers look like normal coloured rabbits but if they had a BEW parent they must have the vienna gene.

Marked mostly look like normal coloured rabbits but will have some white somewhere, it can be a spot on their nose, a white toe or they can have so much white you might mistake them for a dutch
 
Honorine":2pk7i6vw said:
Look Maggie, I made paragraphs!!

:rotfl:

__________ Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:19 am __________

Dood":2pk7i6vw said:
Carriers look like normal coloured rabbits but if they had a BEW parent they must have the vienna gene.

Marked mostly look like normal coloured rabbits but will have some white somewhere, it can be a spot on their nose, a white toe or they can have so much white you might mistake them for a dutch

I have a litter out of a doe that is 1/2 Chocolate Cal and 1/2 Chocolate Rex that was bred to a Chocolate Rex buck. Of the 9 kits, 1 is Choco Cal marked, the other 8 are Chocolate, some Rex furred and some not. Of those 8, 3 have small white forehead blazes...

1106122014a.jpg

:shock: :hmm: :shrug: :thinking:
 
But not all white blazes are vienna marks. Some are just mismarked solids, scratched areas that grow in white.
 
Cool!
But I dont think Vienna is in standard rex yet so it might just be mis markings.(I assume it is standard since they were crossed with a californian, that would be a painful birth for a mini rex mom to have to push out cali cross kits)

You can test breed them to a BEW or to each other and if you get any BEW you can sell them for $$$$ and work on getting them recognized as a showable colour.

PS take note that your rex buck must carry REW (or a himalayan gene) to father a cali kit
 
Dood":20o0bvnz said:
Cool!
But I dont think Vienna is in standard rex yet so it might just be mis markings.(I assume it is standard since they were crossed with a californian, that would be a painful birth for a mini rex mom to have to push out cali cross kits)

PS take note that your rex buck must carry REW (or a himalayan gene) to father a cali kit

Yes, they are Rex, not Mini Rex, and I am pretty sure the buck has REW in his ancestry...I bred this same doe to her full brother, also Choco Cal marked, and got a whole litter of pinkies that I *think* are Cal marked...but cannot tell yet as they are not old enough to see the points yet. I am *hoping* for some Rex furred, Cal marked kits.

You can test breed them to a BEW or to each other and if you get any BEW you can sell them for $$$$ and work on getting them recognized as a showable colour.

Oh really? Interesting...I don't have any BEW in the barn, only Cal, NZW and my Rex. I just may try keeping a pair and breeding them together, just for fun.

Interestingly enough, the kit with the largest white mark was recently dispatched. I walked past the cage and heard rattling lung noises, so I pinpointed the source, removed it, and listen to it's lungs. Sounded like lung congestion so I dispatched it promptly. I am watching the rest, but I have not seen or heard anything from the others.
 
This is very interesting.. I am looking into getting REW and himi in my Holland Lops. I will definitely keep a close eye on them and if there are any similar problems, at least I will know what caused it. I will keep white bunnies in my care longer and watch them like a hawk.

I'm glad this topic came up now.
 

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