Intensively inbreeding for cuteness?

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Looking for some validation here. I have no issues with inbreeding/linebreeding, just saying that now.

I have a pair of Netherland Dwarfs. I really dislike the doe, no fault of her own but she's a feed-digger, she wasn't socialized as a kit and is subsequently tough to handle, and she's been an iffy breeding doe. I've finally figured out how to get a live litter out of her but it's time and space intensive, and I'm sick of her high-maintenance needs. Only reason I've kept her is because I intend to sell cute young bunnies as pets (quality temperaments and health guaranteed of course) to help offset the costs of my rabbitry.

The buck is a nicer rabbit, but he's a self-black, and around here black animals tend not to sell really well. People want cute spotty marked bunnies, or solids in cool lighter colors. I may remove him because I hate the thought of having to turn his black kits into stew, which is what will happen if they don't sell.

This litter of kits is REALLY cute. REALLY. There is a chunky false charlie kit that I think is actually a blue otter under the markings, and I'm pretty sure it's a buck. Tempted to keep that one and ditch the black buck who sired him. There's a pair of blue kits, one is probably a broken blue otter, the other is a solid blue otter, I think they are does. I could keep one and get rid of the doe who birthed them.

Thing is, the pair I have now MIGHT be siblings. I don't know for sure, I got them as pet culls for free for the stew pot and didn't care a hoot about lineage since they were aiming for my table. However they were cute and I decided to keep a pair as said for the expressed purpose of selling cute, healthy bunnies to pay my feed bill.

There's a second hitch, I put the doe in with several bucks because after two REALLY failed litters, I was sure she'd hamburger this one too, so I was basically making it a buck free-for-all and I suspect some of the kits have different sires. So these kits might just be half-siblings. IDK. (And no, I won't be selling them as purebreds, just "dwarf bunnies.")

So...basically my thought is...keep the false charlie blue otter buck kit, and one of the other kits, and get everything blue and blue otter, some broken some not, possibly charlies if I opt for the broken doe kit. Cute as heck and should sell as pets. Thoughts? Is this inbreeding too closely? Or should they be ok? :|

 

[Zass]

Since you are ready to cull anything horrible that might crop up, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Dood]

Not too close in my opinion

 

[akane]

I'd keep a close eye on the first couple litters out of them. ND have some messed up genetic stuff going on. Pet bred false dwarf are less likely to have problems. My closely bred show quality does I got from the only breeder in the area have given me all sorts of junk. Peanuts, max factors, deformed limbs, deformed heads, and lots of stillborns. I have some new stock reserved near chicago whenever I can make the 4hr one way trip. It is a full sibling pair and I will probably try crossing them occasionally to reproduce their exact color. Mostly though I have unrelated bucks and a doe that I acquired from other locations as the opportunities came up. Then I can ditch these does with messed up genetics.

 

[SableSteel]

I wouldn't do it. If it was any other breed, then maybe. But netherland dwarfs tend to have a lot of problems with intense inbreeding - max factors, hippos, maloclussion (esp. if they have round heads like pet buyers like). I would keep the father - if these are his kits, then he carries some genes that could make cool colors anyway, like dilute and false Charlie modifiers, and he wouldn't be as related to the baby does as the baby buck. If you choose him, you may have to cull blacks, if you chose the baby buck, you may have worse things in there.

 

[Prisma]

Breed, keep the best, term cull the rest. To me it would be the quickest way to find out what possible problems and nasties are lurking in the gene pool.

Since you are wanting pets to sale, after rereading again, that may not be the best option. I have had fewer issues with tightly bred rabbits than out crosses however and would still do the breeding. You have another issue with that, most people would not like nor understand why you'd want to breed possible siblings and sell them for pets.

 

[squidpop]

If you did sell them you would have to advertise to pet people as "no pedigree".

If you do decide to breed the siblings, if one is a false charlie you should probably choose the solid blue to breed with. If you breed the false charlie to the broken you may get "true charlies" and they will may have megacolin which is a common problem with breeding spotted to spotted.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

You have another issue with that, most people would not like nor understand why you'd want to breed possible siblings and sell them for pets.

I don't think he will be selling them with pedigrees anyway...:

Thing is, the pair I have now MIGHT be siblings. I don't know for sure, I got them as pet culls for free

There's a second hitch, I put the doe in with several bucks because after two REALLY failed litters

...no pedigrees on the original pair, and no idea on which buck or bucks sired this litter.

Is this inbreeding too closely? Or should they be ok? :|

I wouldn't hesitate to do it with the breeds I raise, but SableSteel has a good point with all of the inherent problems with the breed. You may have lots of kits that need to be culled- but if your friend still has that cat on the special diet, or you know reptile people they will still have a purpose.

On the flip side, as Rebel Rose mentioned, it is the quickest way to find out what they are hiding in the gene pool, good and bad.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I'd keep a close eye on the first couple litters out of them.

That I plan to do. I'm a little leery of this side project anyways, to be totally honest, but I'm getting slaughtered on feed costs and I have to try and do SOMETHING to lower the feed bill that does not involve culling any more "keepers," lol.

Pet bred false dwarf are less likely to have problems.

Both of my Netherlands are false dwarfs. That's how I got seven kits and no peanuts. They're "big" Netherlands, too...like as big or bigger than some of my Mini Rex. They were "BUD/BUB" culls from show lines though.

You have another issue with that, most people would not like nor understand why you'd want to breed possible siblings and sell them for pets.

I wouldn't exactly use the fact that they are related as a selling point. If the buyer doesn't ask, I don't plan to mention they are out of siblings.

If you did sell them you would have to advertise to pet people as "no pedigree".

Uhm...I'm going to quote myself here from the above original post: "I don't know for sure, I got them as pet culls for free for the stew pot and didn't care a hoot about lineage since they were aiming for my table." That statement is basically that my pair are not pedigreed. Add that to another part of my original post: "(And no, I won't be selling them as purebreds, just "dwarf bunnies.")" Those two statements should pretty effectively convey that they will be sold as NO PEDIGREE. I don't sell pets with pedigrees, period.

If you do decide to breed the siblings, if one is a false charlie you should probably choose the solid blue to breed with. If you breed the false charlie to the broken you may get "true charlies" and they will may have megacolin which is a common problem with breeding spotted to spotted.

I know, I'm aware of what makes a rabbit a true Charlie. I'm leaning towards the solid blue otter BUT I've seen true Charlies sell decently as well, and it will depend on if the solid blue otter is a doe...if it's a buck, and the broken otter is a doe, the broken otter will probably be the "keeper."

To be honest I'm more worried about the proclivity of inbreeding to bring out negative recessive traits than the possibility of Charlies. Hence the question.

...no pedigrees on the original pair, and no idea on which buck or bucks sired this litter.

Precisely, MSD.

You may have lots of kits that need to be culled- but if your friend still has that cat on the special diet, or you know reptile people they will still have a purpose.

Well, probably no peanuts, lol. But agreed, I'm unsure what will out thanks to close inbreeding...my ex gf has reptiles (I send all my kit culls and peanuts to her for snakes) so they'll be put to use for sure. Hopefully not an issue, but still.

On the flip side, as Rebel Rose mentioned, it is the quickest way to find out what they are hiding in the gene pool, good and bad.

To be frank I'm not very emotionally attached to my NDs...they are my attempt to recoup the feed losses, and they are cute. If I end up having to scrap the whole project down the line it wouldn't break my heart. Really, I've considered selling all the kits, cooking/eating the adult pair, and being done with it...but that will strongly depend on how well the kits sell. I have to find a way to fund my rabbits or I will have to cull or sell more of my "keepers;" my herd is down to bare bones and I'm getting frustrated by that.

 

[3mina]

I'd give it a shot, the worst that could happen is they end up on a dinner plate

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

This is rapidly becoming a moot point...Tionol has started turning on her kits, growling and boxing them when they wander too close. I do believe mothering is a somewhat genetic instinct and I'm pretty angry and disappointed in her. I don't want a lineage of bad mothers. I might keep one of the cute baby bucks to breed to my MR does (maybe my MR can pay their feed bill with producing cute pets in between purebred litters for ME) but forget keeping a buck AND doe kit. Putting a buck from a bad-mother line to a doe with great instincts is one thing, putting two rabbits of a bad-mother line together seems to be asking for disaster.

 

[3mina]

How old are the kits? My does do that when the kits hit about four weeks. The time when she'd be due if she'd been bred 'in the wild'. If they're younger then yes I wouldn't proceed either.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

They are two-and-a-half weeks and JUST starting to come out of the nest box. WAY too young for her to be this obnoxious. Plus she's acting aggressive with them when they aren't even trying to nurse...she's just mean. I'm periodically separating her now and contemplating fostering her kits to my other doe...but ten total kits would be hard for one Mini Rex doe to cope with!!!

 

[akane]

Her poor handling and high level of stress could be unique to her and not her offspring. I've had does get confused about their kits running loose and charge them some. They realize after a few days what is going on and never have a problem again. I do think some of it is not genetic. How long the does were kept with their mother, what size cage, how old they are when they have their litter, and how they react to their new environment could contribute to them getting upset with the kits. Rabbits kept alone their whole lives with no other moving things in their cage can get very confused when there is suddenly no barrier between them and another rabbit irregardless of it's age. I would just see if it repeats or doesn't stop soon. The only doe I didn't want to keep offspring from killed several kits and dwarf rabbits in the colony until she had her own litter. She settled after her kits were weaning but she cost me some good netherlands and small breed crosses. Her sister and her sister's offspring had no trouble.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Ironically the only thing I DO know about her is that she was originally kept in a growout pen with half a dozen other rabbits, and when I took them I kept her and the other ND together for a long time, so she wasn't isolated until she was pregnant the first time.

She was a lot more tractable and lenient with her kits after being separated for a period of time...so I'm keeping my fingers crossed she nurses them a week or two longer. I am still separating her after they nurse though, and I'm watching her like a hawk.

Her kits are super-smart though. They huddle in a corner in a pile when she gets growly. That's when she gets to go live in a separate cage for a while. So frustrating!!!! I just keep reminding myself at LEAST she didn't hamburger this litter like the last one........

 

[squidpop]

To be honest I'm more worried about the proclivity of inbreeding to bring out negative recessive traits than the possibility of Charlies. Hence the question.

Breeding a Charlie creates a negative trait that is just about as bad as malocclusions from inbreeding, its called megacolon, a deformity in the colon and they get digestive problems, enteritis, and blockages.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

To be honest I'm more worried about the proclivity of inbreeding to bring out negative recessive traits than the possibility of Charlies. Hence the question.

Breeding a Charlie creates a negative trait that is just about as bad as malocclusions from inbreeding, its called megacolon, a deformity in the colon and they get digestive problems, enteritis, and blockages.

Cite your sources please? I know it CAN cause problems SOMETIMES but you make it sound like it happens every time. I think it's less likely to cause problems than, say, the dwarf gene causing peanuts.

 

[akane]

None of my charlies had problems but I always fed a high hay diet. I know some have reported all their charlies die within a couple years including others that feed hay daily. I don't know if it's the genetics found in certain breeds, diet, or more random factors that result in some having lots of problems. I probably wouldn't sell any charlies. I might keep one for my own breeding purposes of creating 100% broken litters. Peanuts and max factor are always killed. It's not like you are selling them off to someone with health issues. I would treat charlies the same. All charlies should be butchered or culled in the box unless it's for your own purposes.

 

[Prisma]

I've heard of it happening some times as well, but only with certain lines. I've had many charlies, bred charlies to charlies, never had an issue personally. I have only done this with MR and HLs. Should also note that there is another breeder nearby that breeds specifically for charlies, never has had an issue as far as the megacolon goes but has had issues with solid or normal brokens when outside lines have been brought in to improve. It reminds me of the all bews are bad as they all have seizures comment I seen on a FB group not too long ago, some lines do have that problem but not all. It is some thing that needs to be terminally culled. I think it is like any thing else, breed for healthy rabbits and term cull problem makers.

 

[akane]

The issue is even if your lines don't produce charlies with problems you don't know that until you've kept several for a few years. The problems may not be obvious until a year or 2 later the rabbit has GI stasis or something related and then you don't know if it's that specific individual unless you keep multiple ones who mostly do or do not have problems. If I don't know a rabbit is at least very likely to live the average pet lifespan I usually do not sell it. I did sell a handicapped rabbit once with the knowledge it would take extra care and possibly amputation of a nonworking limb but that was an obvious problem and I didn't ask money. I don't want to sell something for money as healthy when there's a better than average chance it will have health issues before the typical lifespan is up.