How long before you can tell between agouti and chins?

[LPH_NY]

I have a gorgeous litter of nine. Mom is Blue Chinchilla and Dad is Lynx (lilac agouti) They are 17 days old and I originally ruled out any chinchilla, since I assumed the Lynx dad wasn't likely to have a cchd hiding. But I began to notice some subtle differences in the coloring of some of the kits a few days ago, and found out the dad might be lugging around a c, making chinchillas (in blue and lilac) a definite possibility. But all the kits have visible tan (some much more pronounced than others.) And even on regular black chins, I know that the baby coats usually include tan/smut. But when they were black based, it was pretty easy to see the difference by about 2 weeks old - at least I seem to recall. How long do I have to wait to be able to see the difference (IF there are actually chins in this litter)?

Mom:

Dad:

Pardon the picture quality - cell camera.

Are there specific markers I can look for at this age to distinguish between blue agouti and blue chin & lilac agouti and lilac chin? Thanks!

 

[Zass]

So much lynx!!!
If you do get lilac chinchillas out of her, you will post pics, right?? I've never had blue or lilac chins as babies, and would love a chance to see their coats develop.

 

[Dood]

The ring pattern in chin should be slate, pearl, black and white ticking

While ring pattern on chestnut should be slate, brown/tan/cream, black and brown ticking

The problem is "smuttyness" in the chinchillas and how long that lasts depends on your bloodline.

 

[LPH_NY]

The ring pattern in chin should be slate, pearl, black and white ticking

While ring pattern on chestnut should be slate, brown/tan/cream, black and brown ticking

But on blue and lilac agouti and chin, there won't be any black. So on a lilac chin, am I looking for slate, pearl, lilac and then white? Or will be base color not be slate? I guess that is what is confusing because lilac looks like tan to me. But what about the back of the neck? On a baby chin, is the back of the neck more slate or more white? Because most of the kits have what looks like tan on the back of the neck. All the kits have blue casts to them... and that's also confusing.

So much lynx!!!
If you do get lilac chinchillas out of her, you will post pics, right?? I've never had blue or lilac chins as babies, and would love a chance to see their coats develop.

I will definitely post pictures as they develop. They may all still be agouti... but I kept Daisy's son, Biscuits, the chocolate chinchilla just so I could create more chocolate chins and lilac chins! So if no chins in this litter, then I'll breed those two together in March. Biscuits has a distinctly different coat quality from Bearnaise, though. Bearnaise is very plushy and his fur is longer than the other rabbits. Three or four of the kits from this litter have fluffier fur than the rest. I think I like the fluffier coat and IF one of them happens to be a lilac chin, I may not keep Biscuits after all. <br /><br /> __________ Sat Jan 16, 2016 1:06 pm __________ <br /><br />

17 days old now. I think I am seeing 3 different colors, possibly 4. What do you think?

 

[skysthelimit]

I'm trying to figure out how to describe it. At the moment, none of these look chin to me. There is just something about the pearl band in chins that is bright white, whiter than any white places on the other agoutis. Even my chocolate chins just didn't look like any other color.

 

[LPH_NY]

Yeah, I kind of suspected that. So, am I seeing two different Lynx coats? There is one kit (middle kit in top pic, left kit in middle pic, and farthest right in the bottom pic of the whole litter.) That kit looks different from the obvious blue agoutis and different from the three other lynx kits. Am I simply seeing a kit with less rufus?

 

[Zass]

Tons of variation in opal and lynx. Rufus can be a factor, and at this age, even a slight difference in fur length can alter the overall look.

 

[LPH_NY]

OK, thanks. I'm a tad bummed not to get chins from this litter.... but it's ok. I have the chocolate chin buckling I can breed her with next. I just wish his coat was thicker and fluffier.

Zass, Knowing what you know about these particular bunnies... What do you think the odds would be of picking a lynx doeling from this litter to breed back to Bearnaise? Good chance of lilac chins that way? Or still a long shot? I want his fluffy coat on everything!

 

[Zass]

If he doesn't throw them, breeding back to a daughter will probably just get you even fluffier lynx. He may not have inherited that recessive c.

Daisy is most likely cchd c herself, so all of her kits will get either cchd or c.

A nice fluffy lynx bucking (C cchd or C c) out of her would definitely be able to throw lilac chins if bred back to her, and there would be the benefit of doubling up her awesome temperament genetics in any doelings produced.

So...maybe a good replacement for him could be chosen from the litter? It would probably be backsliding a little in the coat area, but not nearly as much as continuing with the poorer coated harli genes.

Those ones with the odd coat color. Their fur may actually be a different texture, maybe a bit more dense and soft? It was different than any breed I'm familiar with.

 

[LPH_NY]

If he doesn't throw them, breeding back to a daughter will probably just get you even fluffier lynx. He may not have inherited that recessive c..

D'oh. I should have figured that one out! lol. Nothing wrong with more fluffy, though.... Maybe a line of nothing but extra fluffy lynx would be nice.

So if I want to get chocolate and lilac chinchilla color with the coat texture from Bearnaise, what's the shortest way to get there? Keep a fluffy Lynx doeling from this litter and pair it with a chocolate or lilac chin from Daisy x Biscuit? Then keep a chin boy to breed to Lynx doe? And pick a fluffy son to breed back to her? Is that a sound recipe? If Bearnaise is CC and Daisy is cchd c, then their kits are all C cchd and C c. Of course, I can't tell which combo unless I test breed the kits. If she's carrying c, then Biscuit could also be carrying c. So any chin kits they produce would either be cchdc or cchdcchd (because the magpie daddy is also cchd, right?)

I'm assuming that no bunny is hiding self. Also assuming no bunny is lugging around non-extension.

 

[Zass]

So if I want to get chocolate and lilac chinchilla color with the coat texture from Bearnaise, what's the shortest way to get there? Keep a fluffy Lynx doeling from this litter and pair it with a chocolate or lilac chin from Daisy x Biscuit? Then keep a chin boy to breed to Lynx doe? And pick a fluffy son to breed back to her? Is that a sound recipe? If Bearnaise is CC and Daisy is cchd c, then their kits are all C cchd and C c. Of course, I can't tell which combo unless I test breed the kits. If she's carrying c, then Biscuit could also be carrying c. So any chin kits they produce would either be cchdc or cchdcchd (because the magpie daddy is also cchd, right?)

I'm assuming that no bunny is hiding self. Also assuming no bunny is lugging around non-extension.

I've been working out self, but there is self ancestry on both sides and recessives have a way of hanging on. It's a possibility, but since Daisy and Bearnaise threw no selfs...At least one of those buns is probably AA.

So far as I can tell, the magpie ancestor is AA Bb cchdcchd DD ejej.

99% positive no one has non-extension. I've test bred the lines thoroughly for that.
Some of the americans in Daisy's ancestry carried it, but when she was bred to ejej there were no harlequin kits. So good chance she doesn't have it.

I'm afraid the choco chin is going to harm coats no matter what. It's a flyback coat VS Daisy's thick roll back, and the total opposite of the longer standup coat that Bearnaise's line was working towards.

If you keep selecting harlequinized offspring, you would eventually see japs and magpies(Possible bonus)... With what you have, it may be the only way to get non-dilute chins.

 

[LPH_NY]

I'm afraid the choco chin is going to harm coats no matter what. It's a flyback coat VS Daisy's thick roll back, and the total opposite of the longer standup coat that Bearnaise's line was working towards.
.

How long did it take to get to Bearnaise's coat texture? Maybe I will just keep Opal and Lynx in that coat type... Since they are already in the nestbox.

And what about Schnitzel? She came from some of the same lines as Daisy, right? If so, she and Bearnaise should also produce fluffy kits? She and Daisy do have very similar coat texture. I think I don't want to harm the coat quality... it's so nice. I'm wondering if I should move these questions to your earlier thread about the SF agouti coat project...?

 

[Zass]

For the fur, I never had any flyback ancestors in the gene pool, so I have no idea how long it would take to work back out.
Seems like a dominant trait since it showed up in a first gen cross to someone who couldn't have carried it, so it should be easy to get rid of, but it also might have unseen coarseness and/or short length modifiers packaged with it. :shrug:

Schnitzel is genetically closer to Bearnaise than Daisy, I believe.
There was a possibility that crossing the two could have given you better coats than either parent, which is why I'd really hoped she'd co-operate for you! I do not believe she carries chinchilla, but that was a while ago, and my memory is getting fuzzy.

If you could get her back into production, it might be fun to test breed her to Bisciuts, to see if she'd throw rews or chinchillas. If she did, she could be bred to Bearnaise/Daisy kits.
The problem is you's have no idea which ones had the recessive cchd, and which had the c without test breeding.

This is why we ALL need bigger rabbitrys! :lol:

 

[LPH_NY]

Schnitzel is genetically closer to Bearnaise than Daisy, I believe.
There was a possibility that crossing the two could have given you better coats than either parent, which is why I'd really hoped she'd co-operate for you! I do not believe she carries chinchilla, but that was a while ago, and my memory is getting fuzzy.

Well, we FINALLY got to witness 2 fall-offs with Bearnaise and Schnitzel, so there is actually a better chance this time around. I'm crossing my fingers ... she's due on 8 Feb.

This is why we ALL need bigger rabbitrys! :lol:

I really do wish mine was bigger!! There is room for expansion, though, at my new location. inkbunny: :lilbunny: