Help with muddled thoughts - please!

[UK-backyardbunnies]

I'm going around in circles and could do with an outside opinion.

My current set up is as follows:
Standard Rex buck and silver marten doe (hopefully pregnant) in a pen approx 6' x 6', deep litter, fed hay, pellets, and veg scraps.
Silver marten buck (thank you Sex Change Fairy!) in a side pen, approx 4' x 2', deep litter, hay, pellets, scraps.
In another part of the same outbuilding I am putting together a couple of quail cages, raised off the floor. If I could find some more of the same type, they'd make decent rabbit cages.

Problems:
I like that the large pen gives them room to play about, especially when babies arrive. BUT this doe is skittish at best, I have scratch scars all over my hands already and I'm worried I'll hurt her as she struggles.
Do I want to breed from a skittish doe? She was given to me free.
Th rex buck is pleasant and solid, but not huge. I paid for him, and do want the rex coat in my rabbits eventually.
The silver marten buck is sweet, docile, and big. Something is telling me not to cull him.
I don't have room to keep them all "free range".
I cannot source the kind of hutch or cage I would be prepared to use (with drop pans at least) to give me more options.
I cannot source wire mesh suitable to build my own.
It would be a massive stretch to get materials to build my own hutches, I am not a carpenter by nature.
Oh, and the automatic watering system I recently set up to serve rabbit pens and quail cages, has failed spectacularly.

:x

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

What sort of budget are you working with? What are your breeding goals? Has the skittish doe ever been bred?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Why not hold off on the quail and use the cages for the rabbits until you can find more cages?

Rabbits in a colony sometimes become rather wild. It might be best to put the skittish doe in a cage where it will be easy to pet her when she is eating.

I have found that a lot of animals are easy to tame in the days after giving birth. A hormone called prolactin is released while birthing and nursing. It is what helps the mother bond to her young, and you can use it to your advantage by working with her during that time.

 

[UK-backyardbunnies]

Budget - pennies
Idealistic aims - good tempered, chunky, fast growing meat mutts able to live happily on mainly hay and vegetables, with rex coats
Realistic aims - decent tempered meat mutts living on hay and veg (I'll accept a lower output in return for lower inputs)

One quail cage can go straight for rabbits - I didn't know that about taming after birthing.
The other part built cage wouldn't hold a rabbit (well, I haven't even got a floor in it yet, but the rest of it is plastic - chewable heaven!). The one I can use is about 3' by 1 1/2' - it feels too small for a doe and kits?

It's tricky - everything I read about meat rabbits is Americanised, and often clashes with the standard European rabbit keeping.

The quail will be a few weeks away - I'm due some eggs to hatch myself at the end of the month.

Edit - this will be the doe's first litter. It has crossed my mind to try and get a proven rex doe, put her with the SM buck, then see which litter/cross works out better - but that's a lot of space needed.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

The one I can use is about 3' by 1 1/2' - it feels too small for a doe and kits?

That works out to 5.25 square feet. My doe cages are 24" x 30", or 5 square feet, and they raise litters just fine although I would like the cages to be a bit larger.

 

[Miss M]

Why not hold off on the quail and use the cages for the rabbits until you can find more cages?

Spoken in true full-blown Rabbitosis fashion... :twisted:

 

[Dood]

I would wait and see if the kits get their mothers bad temperament or their fathers good one before culling. Make sure you handle them as kits or they will be wild regardless of genetics.

I found this wire supplier in the UK but they dont list prices. http://www.tornadowire.co.uk/

Sometimes you need to think outside the box in cage creation.

You can use wire shelving found in closets, refrigerators and storage shelves can be tied together to make cages.
http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/pho ... /150206431
http://mnhouserabbit.org/rabbit/care/ho ... ondos.html

I have refitted a bunch of free dog cages into rabbit cages. They are easy to disassemble so small ones can be combined to make a larger one and I just needed to put smaller spaced wire on the bottom but many come with trays and bedding or a litter box would work as well. Kits can fit through the bars so I usually keep bucks in them but I have also lined one with half inch baby saver wire.
http://www.feedem.co.uk/dog-cages-c49/h ... very-p6377

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

I don't think you have anything to lose by breeding your doe; she might calm down some.

On a penny budget, I'd encourage as much creative "re-purposing" as safely possible. Do you have the equivalent of Craigslist where you live?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Why not hold off on the quail and use the cages for the rabbits until you can find more cages?

Spoken in true full-blown Rabbitosis fashion... :twisted:

Well... *Sniff!*... we must keep our priorities straight, mustn't we? :twisted:

Quail indeed, when the bunnies need cages...

 

[dragonladyleanne]

Just a note, you will not likely get Rex fur from your current set-up, unless the doe has a Rex hiding in her background somewhere (you don't mention pedigree, and since it was free, I am assuming none was provided), as the rex fur is double recessive. You MIGHT get the rex fur if you breed the buck to his own offspring, but I think it's only a 25% chance. And that's only a CHANCE, just like the chance is 50% that offspring will be does, but I have had many litters of mostly (if not all) bucks! So, if you truly want the Rex fur, plan on acquiring a Rex doe, or be prepared to wait a long while in order to breed back.

 

[UK-backyardbunnies]

Just a note, you will not likely get Rex fur from your current set-up, unless the doe has a Rex hiding in her background somewhere (you don't mention pedigree, and since it was free, I am assuming none was provided), as the rex fur is double recessive. You MIGHT get the rex fur if you breed the buck to his own offspring, but I think it's only a 25% chance. And that's only a CHANCE, just like the chance is 50% that offspring will be does, but I have had many litters of mostly (if not all) bucks! So, if you truly want the Rex fur, plan on acquiring a Rex doe, or be prepared to wait a long while in order to breed back.

Hmm
I knew it was recessive, but I didn't think to do the maths on how many would come out female WITH the right gene (which would of course be hidden...). Doh.
If I'd known silver marten was a buck, I wouldn't have bought the rex :roll:

I have just sketched out a plan and worked out material list for a clever pen system, when I have £££, based on the mesh panels I already have I'll have to go and price up some timber though.

EDIT - so, the immediate plan is to pop grumpy doe in the quail cage. What is the largest wire-hole size safe for kits, just so I can double check?
Silver marten buck is a bit....thick.... :lol:

 

[Dood]

Baby saver wire is usually 1 centimeter by 2 centimeters and goes up 6 centimeters high on the walls for meat breeds. It is just small enough that newborns won't get heads stuck and should be OK for your kits.

 

[GBov]

Check car boot sales, you can pick up stuff to repurpose there sometimes or even proper cages. Also check at pound stores, things like cooling racks make great doors and floors for cages.

If you can get at them, tips are great as well for old stuff wanting to become new.

I find that kits in a colony are wild, no mater how often we handle them so we put them in cages at 6 weeks old to tame down. That way eaters are easier to catch and fatter and keepers are tamer. Not in your face tame but tame enough for us.

You can use a pop cage for catching your doe - and long sleeves and fingerless gloves - you just pop a bottomless and topless cage over her so she is easy to catch.

But even in a cage a skittish doe is skittish. We have one named Twitchy for that reason. The most frustrating thing is that if her kits are her color - chinchilla - they have her temperament but if they are the color of the buck they have his. Pity about that as I really love her color but she is the only skittish doe allowed.

And quail ROCK! Great for eggs and meat! LOVE quail, we do!

 

[UK-backyardbunnies]

Thanks for all your thoughts, it has helped clear my head slightly.

I've scratched together enough materials for one super-duper-clever cage, if it works I'll put up some pics
I think I'll move to cages for now, while I'm still learning about the individuals. I'd hate to miss a problem (these are my first breeding rabbits) by having them "free ranging".

Still peeved that the automatic watering system was a disaster, can't face faffing with it right now (merchant hasn't responded to query either).

<br /><br />__________ Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:40 pm __________<br /><br />Super duper clever cage failed; there is not a straight line or right angle to be found in this entire town, and trying to get by on cheap materials and tools doesn't help. *Sulk*

 

[AnnClaire]

Backyard, since the buck is quite tame, how about moving him into the larger enclosure and tearing the smaller one down to build a cage for the doe? As you can afford to add cages, you can move the buck into one, and use the larger enclosure as a daytime runout pen for short play time sessions.