broken color not healthy?

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JessicaR

JessicaR

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I was just curious about something I have been told about broken rabbits.

I got my broken chocolate MR yesterday and had her bred to a broken chocolate. The woman I got her from said all the resulting kits should only be bred to solids. She said too much broken to broken breeding causes unhealthy rabbits that dont live as long, they have colon and other orgen issues.

I know i have heard others say on here that its usually the brokens that die first if there are any problems. So it just made me wonder if there is some truth to this.
 
I think it is specifically charlies that have the digestive issues..don't quote me though. Charlies only come from broken x broken breedings.
 
I have just begun tracking my losses according to broken/solid. I have heard that Charlies can have digestive issues, but have no personal experience yet with broken to broken breedings, but I will soon. I have an upcoming litter from a butterfly patterned doe and a heavily blanketed buck. I have heard that you can get good brokens that way, but about 25% will be Charlies. I will cull those for meat and pelts. I would hesitate to breed any of the resulting broken kits from that cross to another broken, and will use a solid/broken pairing for that generation at the very least.

I would suggest buying two more animals from the line you are working with- a solid buck and a solid doe- so you can create another line of broken to solid breeding to breed the kits from your current litter to. I believe it would also be a good idea to breed solid to solid and breed the offspring to brokens so you don't have too much of the broken gene in the lines in case they truly are weaker in some way.
 
One of my breeds is the Blanc de Hotot... They are the result of Broken to broken (en en) for many generations.

They can have severe colon issues that will wind up being lethal. There is something in the "en en" gene combination that causes an enzyme in the gut Not to be made by the animal. This causes food not to be digested properly. It then tends to pack in the lower bowel and the animal will die.

A generation or two of broken to broken does Not automaticly mean that this "mega-colon" will occur. However it is something to keep in mind when breeding.
 
I have heard the same thing about Dwarf hotots from a judge who raises them.
 
In many species, where color patterns are part of a breed characteristic, too much white is linked to some sort of health issue-- in horses, fatal white is an incomplete digestive system, in dogs and cats, It is linked to deafness
 
I never knew about the health problems, I only knew about that broken to broken can result in charlies. Its good to know about these things :)

Anyways she was bred to a blanket patterned buck and I planned on keeping a doe to breed to my solid buck.
 
I've heard that the gene that strips color also is connected to the message producing thingies in the brain, causing issues in the physical development of fetus and even grown animals, as well as neurotic problems. I read it in a book, but even the book said that it was an iffy study. It definitely could explain a lot of things!
 
MamaSheepdog":15ikhn3i said:
I have just begun tracking my losses according to broken/solid. I have heard that Charlies can have digestive issues, but have no personal experience yet with broken to broken breedings, but I will soon. I have an upcoming litter from a butterfly patterned doe and a heavily blanketed buck. I have heard that you can get good brokens that way, but about 25% will be Charlies. I will cull those for meat and pelts. I would hesitate to breed any of the resulting broken kits from that cross to another broken, and will use a solid/broken pairing for that generation at the very least.

I would suggest buying two more animals from the line you are working with- a solid buck and a solid doe- so you can create another line of broken to solid breeding to breed the kits from your current litter to. I believe it would also be a good idea to breed solid to solid and breed the offspring to brokens so you don't have too much of the broken gene in the lines in case they truly are weaker in some way.
Click to expand...

I have also been told that if you breed brokens to solids that don't have brokens in the background, you might get a lot of booted brokens, or brokens that are too heavily patterned. I'll let you know after things go for a year or so. Right now the only buck I have is broken, so all colors, broken or not, are bred to him. I am on my second litter of broken to broken. I will breed the broken to a REW for the next breeding,when he matures, but he has prominent guard hairs, and she has produced several kits with off fur, so I'm pretty much expecting to cull all of the kits from that litter.

I did realize one thing-- although I love the brokens, and they seem to win alot on the table, it's kind of hard to cull for fur, unless you plan on dyeing the fur, the patterns don't match too well.
 
Any line, any color, can have genetic issues that result in seizures or other health issues. If a line is giving health problems, charlie or not, get rid of it terminally or keep as a pet permanently...don't perpetuate the problem. I've got several rabbits from broken to broken (tri to tri) for 3 + generations and have had NO issues in the kids/adults. I've heard the same thing on charlies..don't breed them together or you'll get junk but again I think its line related more then color specific based on my own breedings. However, I've also purchased 'nice' show quality solids in the past to breed that had done OK on the table (chocolate to chocolate was main one, along with rew and rew genetically solids) that produced kids with continuous gut, bone, and seizure issues...they were terminally culled as I didn't want to keep them for personal pets and I wouldn't trust selling them since they were nice rabbits and would be too temping to breed.
 
Charlies only sometimes have problems unlike some other genes. The white (double of one of the overo paint genes) in horses is a lethal white meaning they can't survive. You'll find lethal white in most species. With gerbils spotted is lethal white and the pups aren't even born but die and are absorbed before then. Charlie is not a lethal white but the closer you get to fully diluted the more problems you tend to have in the animals such as skin, vision, hearing, and digestive issues. This often applies to other dilution genes as well and I find heavily diluted rodents to be less hardy requiring an easier to digest diet and more concern over stable room temp. It's something you choose to risk or not. Some will purposely create a charlie and keep ones that don't have apparent health problems to cross with solids so they get 100% broken since that's the only way to do so. Personally I've had no problems with charlies I've created but I feed unlimited hay which helps prevent those digestive tract problems.
 
The original Blancs were developed around 1902 and the coloring was first displayed at European shows in 1912.While i would not dare to claim that the breed has been bred Pure for this long...100 years of breeding en en would most likely show problems.

I have even read that in the 1980s when the Dwarf Hotot was being developed that many breeders would try to get the rabbits bred Before they were 18 months old, as quite a few would die by that age due to the mega-colon issues.

Yet another tidbit of information... in some European countries it is illegal to knowingly breed animals that might carry a genetic 'fault' that could cause the death of that animal.
 
Random Rabbit":1x1odyj2 said:
Yet another tidbit of information... in some European countries it is illegal to knowingly breed animals that might carry a genetic 'fault' that could cause the death of that animal.
Click to expand...

Oh dear! :x I am afraid we all suffer the genetic fault of eventual death!
 
i dislike having charlies and once I ensure that they are healthy I always sell them to a pet home, for a discounted price and with no health guarantee... OR I cull them. I tend to more oft than not, to simply cull them.

I have found every single charlie to have some type of a digestive issue... some just as a weaning issue, and other times it just strikes later in life. Whether from my herd or brought in. Not worth the hassles to me. I won't even buy them any more.
 
Okay, insert blonde moment, what's a charlie? Are they what you call the solids in the litter by a broken? Something completely different? How can you tell if you get one?
 
A charlie is a broken with less than 10% body color, from 2 broken parents, having two broken genes. Usually they have spine markings, no nose markings, and ear markings, but all of my charlies have had either full nose butterflies or two nose spots. Some think they are more susceptible to health problems, although the ARBA book explicitly states there is no real evidence. Of course, no one can be 100% sure about anything, there is no empirical data (not that I believe everything scientist say).

Charlies are very obvious in the litter, they have almost no colored spots on their bodies when they are born, mine from this litter was a dilute, has a few spots on its bum, and barely had ear color.
 
skysthelimit":3eeh0zyk said:
A charlie is a broken with less than 10% body color, from 2 broken parents, having two broken genes. Usually they have spine markings, no nose markings, and ear markings, but all of my charlies have had either full nose butterflies or two nose spots. Some think they are more susceptible to health problems, although the ARBA book explicitly states there is no real evidence. Of course, no one can be 100% sure about anything, there is no empirical data (not that I believe everything scientist say).

Charlies are very obvious in the litter, they have almost no colored spots on their bodies when they are born, mine from this litter was a dilute, has a few spots on its bum, and barely had ear color.
Click to expand...

Then to make it more difficult, there is a false charlie :lol: My one lionhead was a false charlie. She only had color on her ears, around her eyes and the btterfly on her nose. When I bred her she only had 1 broken in the litter.
 
JessicaR":l25x60zv said:
skysthelimit":l25x60zv said:
A charlie is a broken with less than 10% body color, from 2 broken parents, having two broken genes. Usually they have spine markings, no nose markings, and ear markings, but all of my charlies have had either full nose butterflies or two nose spots. Some think they are more susceptible to health problems, although the ARBA book explicitly states there is no real evidence. Of course, no one can be 100% sure about anything, there is no empirical data (not that I believe everything scientist say).

Charlies are very obvious in the litter, they have almost no colored spots on their bodies when they are born, mine from this litter was a dilute, has a few spots on its bum, and barely had ear color.
Click to expand...

Then to make it more difficult, there is a false charlie :lol: My one lionhead was a false charlie. She only had color on her ears, around her eyes and the btterfly on her nose. When I bred her she only had 1 broken in the litter.
Click to expand...


:( It's always something isn't it.
 

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