Bad Feed..........Dead Rabbits.

[Randy]

Sorry to hear this grumpy. I havn't been on in several days or would of responded sooner.

I can't say what the cause of your rabbits problems is but while reading your post I had an immeadiate reminder of something that happend here in southern Ontario at least a decade ago. It was a wet year and a lot of propionic acid was being added to the hay to preserve it in order for it to keep, wich is fine. However, the feed company was already adding acid to the feed on a regular basis. They were unaware of the additional acid and thus unable to tamake a change in the feed formula. There was too much acid in the feed for the rabbits to handle.

 

[grumpy]

that's good to know the rest are doing ok.. what are you feeding your herd now?

Country-Acres....a low-end, Purina product....I've fed it in the past with no
problems whatsoever. It's what I started feeding last fall when prices got so
high.

When I switched back to "Kent" is when I put that post up about my feed
cleaner. I was having to clean each bag of Kent before I fed it. The stuff
was loaded with fines. On the other hand, Country-Acres had little to no
fines in it, and it still doesn't. I noticed how clean it was, today.

I opened my mouth too quick....I lost one 5-week kit old today.

grumpy

 

[Sagebrush]

I am so sorry that you have lost another one Grumpy. I hope that the rest get better soon!

 

[Miss M]

that's good to know the rest are doing ok.. what are you feeding your herd now?

Country-Acres....a low-end, Purina product....I've fed it in the past with no
problems whatsoever. It's what I started feeding last fall when prices got so high.

I fed Country Acres for a good while... until the feed store was out of it, and I had to get something, so I got the regular Purina. I never had any trouble with either.

I'm sorry you've lost another bun, Grumpy!

 

[TwoAcreDream]

Grumpy,
I have been reading your thread since the first post.
I am in high hopes that you have turned the corner.
Waiting to hear the results of the feed testing.

We have a sick dog the last few days. I kept mumbling
over and over....what has the dog ate that has disagreed
with him so badly. Your thread has been in the back of my
mind on and off. This morning, I have done some
searches on Old Roy dog food recalls. Bingo. The dog
will now get home made dog food. I am NOT going to be
buying any more manufactured dog food.

I am also questioning the grain I buy from the local mill for
my animals. I will not buy any of their made at the mill,
rabbit pellets from them anymore. The manager at the grain
mill was not believing me when I told him the last 5 bags of
scratch grain that I bought for the chickens had gotten wet
somehow. The paper on the bags was coming off in layers.
The inside had a plastic liner and the grain looked fine.
The next time, I won't let them load any bags that look
like they had been wet. I saw where the bags had been stored.
But I believe they are made at a different local mill, and trucked to
this one. Also I questioned the layer mix. One of the bags had
big lumps. He told me that was from settling. I am not happy
with grain mills. I grew up on a working dairy farm. I'm no expert
on anything. However, I am no turnip either.

 

[HowlsOfAngels]

Grumpy,
We have a sick dog the last few days. I kept mumbling
over and over....what has the dog ate that has disagreed
with him so badly. Your thread has been in the back of my
mind on and off. This morning, I have done some
searches on Old Roy dog food recalls. Bingo. The dog
will now get home made dog food. I am NOT going to be
buying any more manufactured dog food.

Your issue shouldn't be with manufactured dog food, it should be with the worst brands of manufactured dog food; those with corn and other cheap fillers. I've fed Taste of the Wild for the last three years and have never had an issue with it, plus, my beasts are lean and muscly and all of the dogs I own that were raised on it have never been seriously sick in their lives (not even with parvo, which is prevalent in my area, the worst they've had was a few days of mild nausea at around 3 months of age).

 

[TwoAcreDream]

Grumpy,
We have a sick dog the last few days. I kept mumbling
over and over....what has the dog ate that has disagreed
with him so badly. Your thread has been in the back of my
mind on and off. This morning, I have done some
searches on Old Roy dog food recalls. Bingo. The dog
will now get home made dog food. I am NOT going to be
buying any more manufactured dog food.

Your issue shouldn't be with manufactured dog food, it should be with the worst brands of manufactured dog food; those with corn and other cheap fillers. I've fed Taste of the Wild for the last three years and have never had an issue with it, plus, my beasts are lean and muscly and all of the dogs I own that were raised on it have never been seriously sick in their lives (not even with parvo, which is prevalent in my area, the worst they've had was a few days of mild nausea at around 3 months of age).

I don't wish to take away from Grumpys thread. We only have 1 dog now
who is very special to us. I will be making his dog food from now on.
I started a separte thread about bad dog food in the hopping mad forum.
All our previous dogs have been fine and very healthy.

 

[grumpy]

I think it's a good thing for folks to "question" the feed for their animals.
Be it a dog, cat, cow, pig, or rabbit, they are our responsibility to make
sure they get the nourishment they need........SAFELY!!

Update :: I lost my little red buck last night......
He was a dandy. The way he was acting last night, I had a hunch he'd pass.

AND: After several days, a group of 5-week olds that were hit, just
weren't getting any better. I put them down rather than see them suffer.

Thus far; The total for this ordeal is:
6-does with litters.
1-Red buck,
20+Fryers- 5-10 weeks old.
Well over 30-- Babies 10-12 days old, that I couldn't foster to other does.

It's been a trip....folks. :x One that I've never experienced before.
AND....one that I don't wish to revisit.

Grumpy

 

[dayna]

Grumpy.

I know you must be beside yourself, but I'm curious what your plan is? Have you pulled all the food? Are the rabbits showing signs of kidney failure or anything like that so that you can pin point the exact cause of death?

What percentage of your stock is your loss? Are you able to make an insurance claim? Has the state guy gotten back to you? Have you sent out a rabbit for necropsy? Have you sent out the food for testing? Have you contacted the rabbit food manufacturer?

You probably answered at least a couple of these questions and I missed it.

I'm really sad but also interested in seeing what happens. So that the rest of us know what to do or not do if something like this ever happen to us.

 

[grumpy]

Grumpy.

I know you must be beside yourself, but I'm curious what your plan is? Have you pulled all the food?
Yes, I pulled all of the food on either day one, or day two of this mess.

Are the rabbits showing signs of kidney failure or anything like that so that you can pin point the exact cause of death?
It's mostly just "looking" under the weather....then dying within 4-8 hours.
Once I pulled all of the feed, the downward spiral began to lessen.
However, there were numerous animals that couldn't rebound.
Those were the ones that lingered until I finally put them down.
It was mostly young stock and 1st litter does on full feed that were hit the hardest.

What percentage of your stock is your loss?
Mature does= 14.28%
One buck out of 11 or 12
Fryers=Probably around 20%

Are you able to make an insurance claim?
Nope, no insurance claim. I can't even take a casualty loss on my taxes. I talked last night to my accountant about that.

Has the state guy gotten back to you?
Surprisingly, they were very quick to respond. The inspector came out the day after I called and made the complaint.

Have you sent out a rabbit for necropsy?
No.....I probably should have. But a necropsy would end up costing upwards of $200.00 once all of the lab work was done. Right now, I can't afford that.

Have you sent out the food for testing?
Yes... Two different places. One bag full of feed to the state. And a large sample to the company.

Have you contacted the rabbit food manufacturer?
Originally.......NO.....My first move was to contact the State Inspector's office. Then my feed dealer to set up my going to get new feed from a different source to make the feed switch as quick as possible.
On day 2, the District Sales Manager for the company called me to set an appointment to come out and discuss the issue with me. He hem-hawed around about me not contacting the Company first. I disagreed with him. As far as I was concerned, when the rabbits started dropping like flies, it became an issue for the State Inspector's Office. I immediately wanted a third party involved in this mess. Someone with an UNBIASED point of view, that carried a little clout.

You probably answered at least a couple of these questions and I missed it.

I'm really sad but also interested in seeing what happens. So that the rest of us know what to do or not do if something like this ever happen to us.

I should be getting some feedback fairly soon. I'll post when I do.
I don't know "what" it was...but it definitely challenged the immune
systems of the stock that was most susceptible. Young production does
and fryers on full feed. The older stock on rationed daily feed, showed
duress but was able to withstand whatever was wrong with the feed.
Some of the older does with litters had the stronger immune system
to throw off the effects of whatever was in the feed.

It's a waiting game now....the rabbitry is stable and recovering. If I hadn't
acted as quickly as I had, I shudder to think what the outcome would have been.
My mind was in "Hyper-Drive" those first couple of days, trying to get a
quick handle on what the blazes was going on.

Grumpy.

 

[michaels4gardens]

sorry you are going through this-- it sure sucks-- if it was a mold or feed toxin the testing should be able to find the cause, and the feed company may offer you some compensation. -- if it was a germ [like clostridium] from feed contamination [like bird poop], they may not find it-- and the feed company will not want to accept any responsibility-- best of luck-- I hope something can be isolated to help with "cause of" all of this--
I once had some dead rabbits, from bird poop contamination in my pellets, the organs [heart, liver kidneys,and some of the GI tract] , looked all blood shot and slimey -it turned out to be some kind of clostridium germ[if I remember right it was Clostridium perfringens C, and some kind of e coli [can't remember exactly] from the bird poop that started the cycle-, but it was a long time ago ] any- way--the bug mainly effected younger animals. and the death was sudden, they looked "a little down" and then just fell over and died.

 

[grumpy]

Michael,

This has surely been an eye-opener. My biggest concern now is what the
analysis report will show. Who knows for sure what minute circumstances
triggered this chain of events. I've rolled this around in my mind thousands
of times. Something in the feed.... is the only conclusion I can come to.

The only chance to find out is through the report from the state. Even then,
they may or may not be able to pin-point the exact problem. It's a dice-roll
whether I like it or not. In my opinion, the state, is the only reliable party
one can trust in giving an unbiased analysis.

Compensation?? It would be nice, but that isn't my reason for doing this.
More than anything else, I want to know, without supposition, what went
wrong?? I've never had this happen in nearly 40 years of keeping rabbits.
My "methods" over the years have improved with my experience. Yet,
when something like this happens, you can surely question every thing
that you do. And I don't like that feeling... :angry: I don't
like second-guessing myself. It's not in my nature to be "unsure" of what
I do or don't do.

Maybe, a higher power figured I needed to be taken down a peg or two.
If that's the case, they were very successful. LOL.

Be that as it may, I'm forging forward with my hard-headed attitude.
It ain't gonna keep me down!! My does are kindling on a weekly basis
and the world keeps turning.

Grumpy

 

[dayna]

Grumpy.

I know you must be beside yourself, but I'm curious what your plan is? Have you pulled all the food?
Yes, I pulled all of the food on either day one, or day two of this mess.

Are the rabbits showing signs of kidney failure or anything like that so that you can pin point the exact cause of death?
It's mostly just "looking" under the weather....then dying within 4-8 hours.
Once I pulled all of the feed, the downward spiral began to lessen.
However, there were numerous animals that couldn't rebound.
Those were the ones that lingered until I finally put them down.
It was mostly young stock and 1st litter does on full feed that were hit the hardest.

What percentage of your stock is your loss?
Mature does= 14.28%
One buck out of 11 or 12
Fryers=Probably around 20%

Are you able to make an insurance claim?
Nope, no insurance claim. I can't even take a casualty loss on my taxes. I talked last night to my accountant about that.

Has the state guy gotten back to you?
Surprisingly, they were very quick to respond. The inspector came out the day after I called and made the complaint.

Have you sent out a rabbit for necropsy?
No.....I probably should have. But a necropsy would end up costing upwards of $200.00 once all of the lab work was done. Right now, I can't afford that.

Have you sent out the food for testing?
Yes... Two different places. One bag full of feed to the state. And a large sample to the company.

Have you contacted the rabbit food manufacturer?
Originally.......NO.....My first move was to contact the State Inspector's office. Then my feed dealer to set up my going to get new feed from a different source to make the feed switch as quick as possible.
On day 2, the District Sales Manager for the company called me to set an appointment to come out and discuss the issue with me. He hem-hawed around about me not contacting the Company first. I disagreed with him. As far as I was concerned, when the rabbits started dropping like flies, it became an issue for the State Inspector's Office. I immediately wanted a third party involved in this mess. Someone with an UNBIASED point of view, that carried a little clout.

You probably answered at least a couple of these questions and I missed it.

I'm really sad but also interested in seeing what happens. So that the rest of us know what to do or not do if something like this ever happen to us.

I should be getting some feedback fairly soon. I'll post when I do.
I don't know "what" it was...but it definitely challenged the immune
systems of the stock that was most susceptible. Young production does
and fryers on full feed. The older stock on rationed daily feed, showed
duress but was able to withstand whatever was wrong with the feed.
Some of the older does with litters had the stronger immune system
to throw off the effects of whatever was in the feed.

It's a waiting game now....the rabbitry is stable and recovering. If I hadn't
acted as quickly as I had, I shudder to think what the outcome would have been.
My mind was in "Hyper-Drive" those first couple of days, trying to get a
quick handle on what the blazes was going on.

Grumpy.

Thanks for taking the time to get back to me and answer my questions. I wonder if your does/bucks might suffer any long term effects, or a shortening of lifespan. I sure hope not.

This has opened my eyes for sure. I used to do almost 100% forage diet, then switched to pellets for convenience. Now I'm rethinking that and maybe coming to a compromise between the two. That way if the feed is tainted that won't be the only thing their eating.

I totally understand about the $200. I couldn't afford it either at this point in my farmers career.

Do you know why you can't write it off as a loss for tax purposes? It seems that a loss of livestock should be a write off.

 

[michaels4gardens]

Michael,

This has surely been an eye-opener. My biggest concern now is what the
analysis report will show. Who knows for sure what minute circumstances
triggered this chain of events. I've rolled this around in my mind thousands
of times. Something in the feed.... is the only conclusion I can come to.

The only chance to find out is through the report from the state. Even then,
they may or may not be able to pin-point the exact problem. It's a dice-roll
whether I like it or not. In my opinion, the state, is the only reliable party
one can trust in giving an unbiased analysis.

Compensation?? It would be nice, but that isn't my reason for doing this.
More than anything else, I want to know, without supposition, what went
wrong?? I've never had this happen in nearly 40 years of keeping rabbits.
My "methods" over the years have improved with my experience. Yet,
when something like this happens, you can surely question every thing
that you do. And I don't like that feeling... :angry: I don't
like second-guessing myself. It's not in my nature to be "unsure" of what
I do or don't do.

Maybe, a higher power figured I needed to be taken down a peg or two.
If that's the case, they were very successful. LOL.

Be that as it may, I'm forging forward with my hard-headed attitude.
It ain't gonna keep me down!! My does are kindling on a weekly basis
and the world keeps turning.

Grumpy

I wish you the best-- when I went through "this kind of thing" it was kind of "the end of innocence" experience-- it made me suspect of every feed company and their profit driven decisions. -from including marginal feed stuffs, bad feed stuffs [to avoid a loss] changing feed ingredients based on price of ingredients, and storage times.
---I also get a little paranoid when I see a little dust come up from grain, hay, or whatever I am feeding. I will smell, and taste it, to see if it is mold-- or-- just a little dust.
sorry this has happened-- it sure sucks---..

 

[Beekeeper10]

I am so sorry this happened to you and your rabbits, Grumpy. I hope and pray that you get answers to what caused this.
I am hopeing to hear what caused this. Tommy

 

[cmfarm]

I am glad to see things are starting to look up for you . I was considering switching feed to the Kent brand because you have had success with it and was pointed to this thread. Sorry for all your losses -/-( One thing I thought I might suggest is checking with your state vet, some states do necropsies for free. I hope all your buns pull threw and everyone starts getting better. :grouphug:

 

[grumpy]

I am glad to see things are starting to look up for you . I was considering switching feed to the Kent brand because you have had success with it and was pointed to this thread. Sorry for all your losses -/-( One thing I thought I might suggest is checking with your state vet, some states do necropsies for free. I hope all your buns pull threw and everyone starts getting better. :grouphug:

Thanks for your concerns:

Yesterday afternoon, I was sitting on a stool, waiting for my water barrels
to fill up and I noticed the rabbits were much more "perky" than they've
been in quite a spell. It's easy to see the uptick in the herd. Brighter eyes,
snappier movements, more alert, and quick to follow my movements.
All good signs of a better, overall general health.

I've decided, regardless of the lab results, I'll not go back to feeding Kent
feed. Issues with excessive fines have been an ongoing concern since I
switched back to it several months ago. The feed I'm using now, has little
to none. For the time being, this is what I'll use. I've basically become
distrustful of any manufactured feed. Their goals and mine, are at oppositional
points of the animal-husbandry spectrum. Theirs is purely profit. Mine is not.

There's got to be a cheaper, healthier way to raise meat rabbits. What I've
got in mind, may take more work, but I believe it will be far more healthy
for the stock I raise for consumers.

""Who?"" truly knows what goes into a bag of manufactured, pelleted,
rabbit food. One can read the label, but in doing so, more questions
are created than the answers given.

grumpy.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I am with you on that grumpy.. I have dogs and I don't trust what goes in there pellet food either as there was allot of animals died ... so I make my own feed for them.. but I cant for the rabbits.. I did do the grains mix for them... just something wasn't right.. they did better on rabbit pellets.. but because of what happened with you.. I am pondering the idea of doing it again but with more of research on my part... so if you have a idea .. please share as I am following your thread

 

[MaggieJ]

There are commercial rabbitries in France (raising Rex du Poitou rabbits for meat and fur) that feed alfalfa hay and whole grains. They may also supplement with fresh greens and I would think some kind of mineral block as well. The translation of the site by Google leaves a lot to be desired and it wasn't clear to me if they were supplementing. The catch for you, Grumpy, would be that they let rabbits grow until 16-20 weeks and butcher them as roasters when the pelts are prime. It works in France because roasters are generally preferred to fryers.
http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl ... 26hs%3DbUg

This is pretty much how I have been feeding my rabbits for years, except that I feed as many fresh greens as I can. I went to natural feeding because of issues with pellets. There are only two brands that were readily available here. One the rabbits did not like and the other contained animal tallow, which I thought was unacceptable.

The biggest drawbacks of natural feeding are the extra work and the somewhat slower growth rate of fryers. Growth rate may be as much influenced by the quality of the stock as by the feed. I've always worked with meat mutts and while I was able to improve on the original yard sale rabbits we purchased back in 2005, they have never been what I would consider prime breeding stock.

If you decide to move in this direction, Grumpy, I suggest you transition only a fraction of your herd during the trial period, to get a better idea of whether or not it would work for you.

 

[michaels4gardens]

For those thinking about alternitive feeding---I would recomend you get a copy of "raising poultry and rabbits on scraps" by Claude Goodchild, Alan Thompson, Penguin books 1941-- and ,add to the instructions given in there, sweet potato, tops and root,[for those living in the south] Jersulam Artichoke, seminole pumpkin squash, [or a squash that grows well for you.