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Autumnarcher

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Had 2 of 3 does that were preg. kindle today, or last night. Out of 18 kits, 11 are dead. Doe 1, a Californian, 3 rd litter, I found 4 dead and a piece of another in the front part ofthe nest box, and 6 doing well in the fur ball.

Doe 2, by far my best doe, a NZ Red, I found 7 kits dead. She usuallly pulls fur immediately before she kindles. I saw fur in the nest this morning when I fed, but didnt disturb her, although I could see the nesting was flat, and didnt appear there were any kits yet. Tonight wehn I fed I pulled the nest box out and found all 7 mashed down in the straw,dead. Her last litter was 10. I don't know if she ate any others, but didnt find any sign that she had.

Prior to that, I lost a litter when the doe built her fur ball nest on the wire, and they crawled out and froze, lost 7 that time.

Another doe, who Ive since culled, killed and ate herlast 2 litters.

I have one other who is due tommorrow, her first litter.

needless to say, Im frustrated to say the least. Here is my routine, feel free to pick it apart, or offer any suggestions or advice. I dont know what the deal is at this point, but Im tired of losing kits.

I have 4 breeding does, 2 Cali's, a NZR and NZW. All rabbits are in 36x30 cages, in an outside shed. Its well ventilated in summer,lattice sidewalls. In winter its got plastic sheeting over the lattice, good air flow but not drafty. air flow gets in via the eaves.

Food is hay in am, 16% pellets( 5-6 oz) and hay in the evening. Once they kindle, I put them on 18% pellets, free feed until kits are weaned, then back to normal routine. all are healthy.

Temps last night were in the teens, and low 30's today. Nest boxes are lined with cardboard on th bottom over top of the wire bottom, then straw. I put the boxes in 5 or 6 days ago, and give them lots of straw.

Is there someting missing in the diet that would make them eat the kits? Is it too cold to breed in the winter without the kits freezing? The 6 that are alive are plenty warm under the furball. The one that really baffles me is my Red doe. Shes usually an awesome mother, and Ive never had an issue with her. Her kits are always tucked into thfurball nicely, and well fed. These were scattered all over the nest, and I suspect she sat on them and smothered them.

Normally, when not due to have kits, there is no nest box in the cages. Should I keep one the cages during winter months?

Im at a loss at this point, if this keeps up, I'm gonna get rid of everything,its just not cost effective to keep feeding and breeding and wind up with next to nothing. Help!
 
Perhaps the does are living in the box to keep warm and scattering or crushing the kits.

I do not leave my nest box with the doe. It is hooked onto the door for 10 minutes in the morning and evening and then put on a shelf the rest of the day. But since the kits were killed on their birthday, you really didnt have time to remove the box, a second nest box might be a good plan until they kindle, then pull the kits box out.
 
I can't offer any advice but I know what you're dealing with. My last litter is the first of September at the latest and my first of the next season is early March if I'm lucky. That's a long time to feed freeloaders.
 
3mina, do you stop breeding during wnter months all together? I had to stoip during summer as it was so hot, and then fall I got maybe 50% of what I had hoped to with september/oct breeding. So here I am now in January. if I wait until march, I may get 2 breeding cycles before it gets hot again.

My biggest concern is what causes a doe to eat the kits? something missing in the diet?
 
Has there been anything going on that the does might construe as "predators"? New barky dogs or construction for instance?
 
Rabbits will eat dead kits to get rid of the mess. I doubt she actually killed them, she is just trying to 'clean house'. When I had a colony, the does would drag dead kits out of the nest and put them along a fence, but in a 3x2 cage that isn't an option.
 
What is their environment like? Are they in an enclosed area or are they outside? Could it be that something disturbed them?

It could also be you just have a bad batch of mothers.

I've had so many problems with dead kits it's unbelievable. Since moving to my mom's, I have not had a litter live. It has been nearly two years. Needless to say I'm taking a break for the time being.
 
I live in northeast georgia and I do what Dood does.I've tried electric bunny warmers and built my own nest boxes, those didn't help with temps in the teens thru the thirties.I started bringing my nestboxes into the house at least ten years ago I haven't lost a bunny to the weather since. I have the opposite problem, I can't breed from June - October at all, then if I didn't bring in boxes, Nov. - Mar. either. Our average temps. here are 20s at night 40-50s days with occassional temps in the teens down to below zero. I remember feeling the way you do, it was heartbreaking. Hang in there and I'm so sorry for your loss.
 
I try to breed year round. My winters are anything but brutal, but my summers are pretty hard.

I do wonder if Dragonlady is on to something. For both of your does to have such issues, especially when one is normally so good... it does sound like they may have gotten very scared by something.

Killing and eating litters is rare and definitely a behavior to cull for. The much more common behavior is for them to eat kits that are born dead, and that is probably what was the case with the one piece of a kit you found.

Their setup, diet, and routine all sound fine.

I don't keep a nestbox in there in the winter for them to keep warm, but I do sometimes put in a cardboard box of hay or something like that.

If I'm right, this is what has happened:

You had a doe who was killing and eating her litters, and you culled her.
The other two are normally good mothers with no issues.
This time, they both had problems. One appears to have killed her entire litter, the other had 5 dead, 6 alive.

If I've got this all right, it sounds like you have probably taken care of the problem you had (the one doe), and something happened this time that seriously spooked your does.

I know it's frustrating, but this could be a one-time hiccup with these two does.

If it happens again, it's probably time to replace your breeding stock. But since they haven't given you trouble in the past, I think something happened to spook them.
 
Autumnarcher":1tktaksf said:
3mina, do you stop breeding during wnter months all together? I had to stoip during summer as it was so hot, and then fall I got maybe 50% of what I had hoped to with september/oct breeding. So here I am now in January. if I wait until march, I may get 2 breeding cycles before it gets hot again.

My biggest concern is what causes a doe to eat the kits? something missing in the diet?

I don't, my rabbits do. I have yet to get a litter after the end of August. Lots of people keep breeding through the winter but without extra light I don't get litters and I get to wait seven months between my last and first litters. In order to make up for this I push my does pretty hard over the summer and I do get to breed through the summer, this far north it doesn't get as nasty hot as the rest of the continent. I can get two or three litters from each doe if I'm very fortunate and I make up for it by having lots of does.
 
5-6 oz of 16% feed.

Are your rabbits maintaining well at that feed amount?

I know my harlequins do best 17% feed at a cup (8 oz), and when I fed 16% I needed to give them an extra cup of feed once or twice a week to maintain good form.

Winter breeding is quite possible to do and it really brings out whether your does are being good moms or not. BUT sometimes good does for some reason decide not to be for "A" litter. I had a doe put on hold (paid for with people willing to wait until I thought she was ready for a pet home). She'd given me a few litters of 8 kits, well cared for in nests, but her last litter here she had them outside the box and it was like ACK!! what's up with this!!! Since I had lots of other does I let her go to her pet home. Saved one of those eight kits. (perhaps she knew she had a pet home waiting?) I dunno.

You also need to get to know your rabbits. I've a couple does who LOVE to sit in their nestboxes just behind of or in front of their kits. I purposefully give them an extra large nest box so they can do just that (means no squished kits). Fitting two boxes in their cages is way more work than I want to do and giving an extra large box is easy enough to do. Some does are fussy on what nestbox they want (Style, size) so you need to understand that aspect as well. Some does like covered boxes, others like them open.

You could, for the week before they are due, offer them the 18% feed. Gives them a protein boost.
There are people who swear by giving a piece of bacon or hotdog the night before they are due, but not something I recommend as rabbits are herbivores. So I'd up their protein and see how that goes.

It could have just been a hiccup as well though. Rabbits will have them. it's the repeated hiccups that generate removal.
 
Nothing got in the shed to spook them, Its closed up at night, and not an issue, other than maybe a mouse here and there. The nest boxes I use are large, but perhaps I can try adding another one, but that sure fills up a cage. Still waiting on the 3rd to kindle. I havent figured out how to feel them for kits, and this does doesnt like being handled anyway. As far as my feeding, all seem to be just fine with what Im doing in that regard.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:14 am __________<br /><br />One thing Im thinking is the nest boxes are the usual sheet metal boxes, open top wire bottom, tall in the back and low front. Im thinking of making up a few square boxes with a lid on it, big enough for the does to go in if she wants and still leave room for the kits. Most hutch set-ups Ive seen have an enclosed area for the rabbits to go in, where cages do not. This would give the doe a place to hang out if she wants, but still leave room for kits. I'll have to play with size and see what works and will fit through the cage door.
 
MArsha was being a terrible mother this last time around, until I brought her insot the house--as a friend suggested to me, the presence of outdoor predator sounds probably is what turned her--Yes, she is fine with MY dog and MY cats-- but the proximity of other 'domestic predators' was enough to put her into super anxious mode-- thereby turning her into a 'bad' mother..

w e have to look at things from the animal's point of view...
 
my two cents...fwiw.... i dislike the metal wire bottom boxes...at anytime but more so in winter. We have wooden boxes with a partial lid and for 'most' does when filled with a layer of shavings and pscked with hay... do very well. I have had a couple does that Absolutely would NOT ever, ever use them... For those two does ( so far only two)... i tried a cardboard carton closed up with an entry hole cut in one end... they could completely Hide in there when they wished... both does went on to raise their litters. Now if i have a doe with nestbox issues ... i will give her one chance with the box... should that ever fail...bye-bye bunny.
 
Give them free choice 18% feed for the last week of their pregnancy. Will help reduce stress from temeperature fluctuations. Might consider brewing raspberry zinger tea and putting it in the water bottles, has a calming effect and is good for milk production.

I check, check, check my mamas from day 28 until a day or two after the kits show up - morning, noon, evening, night, to reduce mortality rates.

When a doe is near kindling, I place a thick layer of straw on the cage floor around the nestbox. So far all my winter mamas still have their babies in the boxes, but I think the extra straw gives mom a place to hang out and will increase the survival rate of kits born out of the box

I have had more troubles with my California cross mamas kindling, they have huge litters of 10-13 kits but I lose a higher percentage; kits born on the wire, smashed in the box, peanuts. I notice that my Cali mamas do not seem to nurse the kits right away. That is why I have focused on raising New Zealands, so far all the New Zealand does have been very good mamas. Just my opinions from limited experience.
 
Well the 3rd doe kindled , and same result. This was her first litter, found 5 dead kits, all in the front ofthe box, it was obvious she just layed in the box on top of them. Didnt pull a lot of hair either.

As for checking them every couple hrs every day, thats not an option around here. The nest boxesin winter have cardboard on the bottom over the wire bottom, then a layer of pine shavings, then a generous amount of straw. Even though they eat some of the straw, I add straw to the box daily to keep it full until they kindle. Bringing them into the house is not going to happen, if I have to do that, I'll just quit the whole thing. Im not bringing livestock into the house. So I dont know at this point whether I will try to breed again during winter, or just wait till spring. Losing 16 out of 22 kits is unacceptable.
 
Autumnarcher":15c1x5g5 said:
Well the 3rd doe kindled , and same result. This was her first litter, found 5 dead kits, all in the front ofthe box, it was obvious she just layed in the box on top of them. Didnt pull a lot of hair either.

As for checking them every couple hrs every day, thats not an option around here. The nest boxesin winter have cardboard on the bottom over the wire bottom, then a layer of pine shavings, then a generous amount of straw. Even though they eat some of the straw, I add straw to the box daily to keep it full until they kindle. Bringing them into the house is not going to happen, if I have to do that, I'll just quit the whole thing. Im not bringing livestock into the house. So I dont know at this point whether I will try to breed again during winter, or just wait till spring. Losing 16 out of 22 kits is unacceptable.

Question...has there been a lot of fireworks going off in your area the last few days? That can freak them out and cause them to huddle in the box...just a thought.
 
Wow! I was sure that when your third doe kindled, it would be fine! :(

That just doesn't seem right... something's going on.

Do you have a game camera, or could you borrow one?

Do you see rat droppings around your cages?

You just don't usually hear of rabbits who are raising litters fine, and then suddenly start having them die like this. It has seemed to me that a rabbit who kills her litters does it from the start, without raising healthy litters for a while first. I guess I could be wrong, and it's just a bad line of rabbits, and maybe you need new stock from a different breeder. :( :shrug:
 

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