12 Kits, Oh My! Need advice.

[jpm]

We have a NZ Doe, Verbenia, who kindled yesterday afternoon. After double counting we came up 12 kits! This is after one died, so 13 in total. Verbinia has had two previous litters of 6 and 7 kits. Our question is what to do now, we can't really imagine Verbinia keeping up with 12 kits, should we cull a couple for the good of the rest or just let it ride and see what happens? Is there any risk to just letting nature take its course?

One other note is that we may have another doe kindle in the next couple days, ideally we would re-home a kit or two.

Any advice?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Most New Zealands are expected to have large litters, so she should be able to feed them just fine. Just keep an eye on their bellies and overall condition.

If you notice that some are falling behind, you can give them a better chance by removing the largest kits prior to a feeding and letting the little guys get their fill first. If this happens, you might want to pull the nest either at night or during the day (after checking for full bellies) and then just keep the largest out while the runty ones eat first when you give the doe the nest back. Missing a feeding usually wont hurt the larger kits and may allow the little guys to catch up a bit in size.

Some people will also "split" the litter in two and have one set get fed in the morning and the other at night.

I personally prefer the option of fostering a couple over to another doe- it is less time consuming for me, and I always try to breed a bunch of does within a couple days of one another, so there are plenty of fostering options open to me.

 

[Zass]

A lot of NZ does can handle 12...Sometimes weaker runts drop off even if the doe can feed that many.

There is no right or wrong decision as to how to handle things.

Kits generally foster easily if they are only a few days apart. It's usually best to match kit sizes as closely as possible.
Larger kits all in one nest, smaller kits in other.


You can leave them all in the nest and allow nature to take it's course. If you do just be sure to check daily and remove any deceased babies.

You also could cull the smallest ones now if you would like, or wait to euthanize only if it becomes obvious that they cannot survive.

My own personal preference is to even out my litters by fostering if possible, not just to maximize survival rates, but also because I feel that large litters can be stressful to does.

For an example of how I handle a lot of kits...
When my senior jap doe had 15, I culled the 4 smallest.
Left 9 for the jap doe, and gave two more to a SF that only had 9 (bumping her litter to 11, because I knew should could feed that many easily.)

It had 100% survival rate for those kits that I didn't euthanize. I may have been able to save more if I'd left them with the does...I don't know. 20 surviving kits in two litters was enough for me at the time.

With the litter of 13 she just had...There was no one to foster to. I euthanized one tiny runt because it couldn't feed. Two more were tragically pulled out onto the wire and chilled to death. That reduced the litter size to a more manageable 10 kits, which is about what I expect to wean.. <br /><br /> -- Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:16 pm -- <br /><br /> A couple of the smallest kits look a little thinner, so maybe I'll leave the largest kits out for a night...I dunno..

 

[jpm]

Thanks you guys are great! I'm going to try some of your suggestions.

 

[Rainey]

Last summer Berwick, a NZW x SF doe that only weighs 7 and a half pounds had thirteen kits. One was a runt that only lived a day or two, but she raised the other 12. They grew a bit more slowly than her smaller litters, but not that much. I know some people foster or cull to get a litter down to a more manageable size. But I don't have the confidence to choose which kits to cull and which to keep so wait to see what happens. Any kit that clearly isn't thriving is culled. She had a later litter that started with 11 and she lost 2 of them in the first few days. So I'd recommend watching to see how they do. Then you can foster if another doe has a small litter or try keeping the fattest kits out so the skinny ones get fed. I like to intervene as little as possible. Have tried supplemental feeding but not successfully. There are different ways to do things, and each of us does what works for us.
Good luck and congratulations

 

[Marinea]

My NZ does regularly have up to 13 kits. I have learned (and tried) many different methods to help the kits here at RT. A few thoughts:

Fostering some kits to another doe can work. I have only tried it with kits born two days apart, but the kits all survived. No issues with a different "smell", no rejection. A quick check daily to make sure all were fed, and done.

I have split litters into two and fed each once a day. This worked well, just taking more time to check each group after each feeding to see if any kits in the " big" group needed to be switched to the "little" group, or vice versa. After two weeks, I have been able to put them back together with no losses.

I have done the supplemental lap feedings for a few kits at a time. This one requires a calmer doe to work. The kits caught up in a few days and went to regular feedings, but were still checked.

I don't cull for litter size, but I understand why some do. My large litters don't reach the wanted 5 pounds in eight weeks, but I don't mind keeping them a couple more weeks. There are a lot of options, and things like cage space, time, rabbitry goals are figure in. Totally up to you to decide what works best for you. Good luck!

 

[jpm]

Thanks everyone for the great information!

I checked today and no dead ones yet, I can't even really tell any being significantly bigger than the others. Hopefully they are all being fed, guess it will be really clear in another day or so.

Now I'm onto another quandary in that it is supposed to get down into the low single digits in the next couple days and I'm thinking about putting a heating lamp over the nesting box. Don't want these little ones burning up what the does is spreading around trying to stay warm. I have a heat lamp that I have used for baby chicks that I can put on top of the cage shining down through. Cages are 18" high so there would be at least 12" between the lam and the kits. What do you all think?

5 black and 7 red/white and I think broken. Fur barely coming in so it is hard to tell. Doe is white and Buck is red with the broken gene. The kids really like the brokens so we are hoping for at least a few of them.

Thanks again!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

As long as there is plenty of fur in the nest, the kits should be warm enough. If you are worried, I would just pull more fur from the doe and add it to the nest. The fur will pull out very easily- just grab a tuft between your fingers and pull from her sides, flanks, and belly.

The heat lamp may cause the kits to overheat and is a fire hazard.

Another option is to bring the box into the house and take it out morning and evening for her to feed the kits.

 

[Rainey]

I agree with MSD. A single kit or really small litter can have trouble staying warm but you don't have to worry about that Besides posing a fire hazard I'd be concerned that the lamp could make them too warm and cause them to scatter to the edges of the nest box instead of staying clumped together.
Glad to hear that none are falling behind, all seem to be fed.Try not to worry. The first few days have always been the hardest, the time when some just failed to thrive. Sounds like you've got a good mother and they'll be able to keep themselves warm as the fur grows in.

 

[Zass]

I have found that a good nest can easily insulate kits to -20 f so long as they are kept out of the wind. Larger litters especially maintain heat well.
The biggest danger from cold is usually with kits being pulled out of the nest while they are still latched on to their dam. I have that problem a lot, and usually keep my winter babies inside until they fur out to help prevent that.

 

[jpm]

Update time. So far all 12 have survived outside, even though it got down to -8 last night! There are two that are really small, one that is just small. The others are all fat little wigglers. We have a long weekend so we can manage manipulating the feedings a bit. We took the 5 fattest biggest kits out, they are spending the night inside with us. The others are outside with the doe hopefully getting a good feeding in or two. Our plan is tomorrow morning the other 4 fat ones will come in for the day. We will keep rotating the biggest ones out through Monday.

What do you all think?

 

[alforddm]

That sounds like a great plan to me. I've done that before with good results.

 

[jpm]

One other development, one of our other does kindled today. 10 kits! It being a few days after the other does kindled we decided to rotate and not try to surrogate a kit over to have 11 and 11. We didn't want to mess with another large litter.

 

[Marinea]

Two nice litters- congrats! In your shoes, I wouldn't foster either, just keep doing what you're doing until the wee ones catch up.

 

[jpm]

Update time again, kits are doing pretty well, there are definitely two smaller than the rest but they seem in much better shape than they were. We keep rotating out the biggest 5.

My wife has a question, when we do put all 12 back in the box will there be any problems? Her thought is that the doe is used to feeding 7 at a time, putting 12 in may completely overwhelm her milk supply. What do you all think?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

when we do put all 12 back in the box will there be any problems? Her thought is that the doe is used to feeding 7 at a time, putting 12 in may completely overwhelm her milk supply.

Splitting the litter is more for the kits than the doe, in that they don't have as much competition for a nipple. The kits move from nipple to nipple when they nurse- they don't all just line up like a content litter of kittens.

She is producing a set amount of milk each day, depending on the needs of the kits and their age. Whether she nurses six in the morning and six at night, or all twelve at once, there is only so much milk to go around.

I would actually try combining the whole litter and see how it goes. Generally, lactating animals (including humans) will produce more milk as needed, so if she is "drained" at each feeding it should cause her to produce more milk to compensate.

Glad to hear they are all still alive! Congrats on a job well done!