The Nestbox

I've been thinking... half the stuff I talk about doesn't fit in any of the other topics. Many are miscellaneous ramblings on everything from the weather to wondering if rabbits are friendlier in the morning.

So I figured I would start a thread.. to contain this stuff without cluttering up all the other threads. If this doesn’t fit with the general setup of the Forum, I will expect to shortly hear from our Mods… in which case this thread will disappear. 

heh. Ramble away I certainly do in most threads, whether they're mine or not

USA feed labels.

I found this link over at HT, it is a good read for us Yanks, and might help those in Canada and other areas understand better when we speak of "feed labels"
http://www.farmandranchguide.com/articles/2009/12/31/ag_news/livestock_news/live2.txt

Sorry link is now down, I will try to find another

As I remember the original article covered the legalities better and was more informative, but here is another:

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/l ... c7d5d.html

This is an important topic, AVD. The article does explain the terms quite well and should be helpful.

I have to say, however, that these group labels are exactly what I object to and one of the main reasons I do not feed commercial pellets. :rant:

By listing the ingredients in groups instead of individually, manufacturers have the freedom to blend their feeds according to market availability and price.

This reduces the overall cost to the rancher and livestock producer.

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It also gives the manufacturer the "freedom" to use inferior products or ones that may be downright harmful to our animals. No thanks! If they won't give me the ingredients in plain English, right on the bag, without "may contains" or "and/ors" then I won't be buying.

:explode:

Even having the ingredient list explicitly stated doesn't mean anything here. The law only requires pet food manufacturers to update their ingredient list 6 months after the changes are made. This applies to cat, dog and small animal feeds. I have to assume it's no better for livestock feeds, though if someone has better information on that, feel free to correct me.

I came home and put together 3 more heaters for my rabbits...now the shed looks like a extension cord octapus........you know.... the kind of thing the fireman warned you about in the 3rd grade saftey class.

And....Whadya know... there is an update here in the weather forcast, -4F here tonight and a balmy -10 on Friday night. :shock:

Oh yeah, Mopsy had her litter.... they are still alive, nest box sitting on the table. she pulled some fur, but not as much as I would like to see. We will just have to wait.

We have always called em Mystery Pellets cuz you never know what they happen to have in them to make up those numbers they post.
It is no better for livestock David- it's worse. They disguise everything with molasses and call it good.
If you talk to a nutritionist at a feed company they explain that it does not matter what it is - what it breaks down to within the animal's digestive system is the key. So just how would you like your melamine today?
B~

MaggieJ":22ceejvv said:

This is an important topic, AVD. The article does explain the terms quite well and should be helpful.
I have to say, however, that these group labels are exactly what I object to and one of the main reasons I do not feed commercial pellets. :rant:

By listing the ingredients in groups instead of individually, manufacturers have the freedom to blend their feeds according to market availability and price.

It also gives the manufacturer the "freedom" to use inferior products or ones that may be downright harmful to our animals. No thanks! If they won't give me the ingredients in plain English, right on the bag, without "may contains" or "and/ors" then I won't be buying.

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It is more than some countries have. In the US, animal products have to be listed... even if it is in a group. Livestock feeds can not be labeld after the fact. They have to be labeled as to what is in the bag the labels are sewn on. Non proteinaceous nitrogen has to be listed. It is not reasonable to have a fixed recipe for forages and such. There is no reason not to sub "distillers grains solids" for "weat middlings" or "sugar beet pulp" for "wheat shorts" etc. If millers were required to stick to an exact formula, the price of a bag of feed would be going up and down $4 or $5 dollars over the course of a year. Of couse, one is allowed to buy or not buy as they please. If US labels don't list "animal by-products", or "meat and bone meal" etc. one can trust there are is no animal products in the feed. I know it is far from perfect, but it apparently is more trustworthy than the ones in Canada, which apparently aren't well regulated.

Sure it is not perfect... but it is a lot more than some get. Much can be learned from the label... if people bother to look...

avdpas77":1rxpxlwd said:

I came home and put together 3 more heaters for my rabbits...now the shed looks like a extension cord octapus........you know.... the kind of thing the fireman warned you about in the 3rd grade saftey class.

And....Whadya know... there is an update here in the weather forcast, -4F here tonight and a balmy -10 on Friday night. :shock:

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One thing about colonies...you can just get a birdbath heater for the ONE waterer and water is done; and they do tend to keep each other warm.

avdpas77":1rxpxlwd said:

Oh yeah, Mopsy had her litter.... they are still alive, nest box sitting on the table. she pulled some fur, but not as much as I would like to see. We will just have to wait.

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Yay Mopsy!! :rock: I've been thinking about just keeping a tub of the angora wool, snipped into 2inch chunks, as a backup nestfur. So many of the posts talk about not enough fur or no fur, even. Congrats on the little ones

Anntann":1l6kvws7 said:

Yay Mopsy!! :rock: I've been thinking about just keeping a tub of the angora wool, snipped into 2inch chunks, as a backup nestfur. So many of the posts talk about not enough fur or no fur, even. Congrats on the little ones

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I think I am having a lot more trouble than most because most of these are first time does... Pepper is due today with her second litter, she didn't pull any fur the first time.. I would sure hate to get rid of her, but if she doesn't pull any fur this time, I won't be able to keep her.

don't get rid of her! um...give her a box of her old fur to use? I mean, if she's got good milk supply and gives you a good number of kits....although, I suppose it might be one of those "she passes it along to the kits" things...and it's more worry.

Pasteurella multocida

Pasteurella is the disease we fear most in our rabbitries. We have all heard different information, so…..what is the truth. According to the 6th edition of Rabbit Production, virtually all rabbits carry the bacteria.
Other articles vary in this opinion, but most agree that the majority of rabbits have it currently or have had in the past.

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/past.shtml

We have heard, that some rabbits may be recovered carriers, so if your rabbitry gets the disease, you should eliminate the entire herd. If virtually all rabbits carry the disease, how could one raise rabbits? I have been researching these questions, and this is a summation of the information I have found.

A) Often manifestations that appear to be Pasteurella infections are not. Rabbits, like people, often have allergies. I, personally, have had two kits, from different litters that were allergic to the hay I was feeding. Take away the hay, and the symptoms left with it. Another breeder had this same problem with a certain type of wood shavings. I don’t suggest keeping such rabbits for breeders, but one should always evaluate the situation before panicking. A less dangerous (to rabbits) disease called Bordetella bronciseptica (known as kennel cough with dogs and cats) can mimic some of the symptoms of Pasteurella multocida. It is sometimes found together with Pasteurella in severe infections.


B) There are different strains of this germ. Some strains are more virulent than others. It is possible that healthy rabbits are able to resist the less virulent strains, and therefore, with good husbandry, the disease is not a problem. Perhaps that indicates that if your rabbitry is clean, and you are developing multiple cases, it is time to get rid of your stock. If one is not developing multiple cases, it might be prudent to wait. If it is one of the virulent strains, one is probably going to get more rabbits infected, anyway, and one can always purge then.

http://www.rabbit.org/care/pasteurella.html

“Colonization and disease is influenced by factors related to both host and pathogen. Different strains of P. multocida have been isolated from rabbits. They are classified by capsular type and serotype; A:12 is the most common in rabbits in the U.S., but A:3 and other A and D serotypes exist. More severe disease has been associated with A:3 and D strains”



C) In the event you wish to treat a infected rabbit, Baytril is the only recognized drug that is 100% effective. I have heard that some people have trouble finding this drug. With my past experience with pigeons, I know it use to be available from Foy’s or Siegel’s.


This is the information to my understanding. I present it here to those who might find it helpful. If one is violently disagrees with my analysis, please post in the "Rant" section.

I agree with you Avdpas. too many people freak out when a rabbit gets a sneeze with discharge and many folks will immediately say cull it.

I say...give it some time. Isolate it. See if anything else develops anything. Might be just that ONE rabbit that has an issue, just doesn't have a strong immune system. So after a week or so, re-evaluate. Does it still sneeze, is it worse, better? Has anyone else caught it? if so...potential problem, if not...cull the one keep the rest. You really don't want to breed poor immune system rabbits anyways, do you?

.

We don’t often have long cold spells here. Many winters it will not get into the negative digits, or at most -2or-3. Even when we do get a bitter spell, it is seldom for more 3 or for days. This year it has been cold already for 10 or more days, down to -4 or -5 on a couple of nights below 0 F 5 or 6 times. This weekend they are projecting 10 or 15 below, with a high of less than 5. This forecast has been going up and down, but mostly they are erring on the high side. ( I just checked Yahoo, and they forecast only a -1) Now you people in Grand Forks Minot, or Winnipeg might not think that is severe, but long cold periods here are unusual.

With this cold weather, the water crocks are not staying thawed for long, and even though I am changing them twice a day, I have noticed a decrease in the amount the rabbits are eating. Since it is colder, I would expect them to be eating more, so I am making the assumption, that this is caused by them have less liquid water throughout the day and night.

Yeah, I am sort of rambling on here, so I will get to my point. It seems likely that the many of diseases that rabbits get are often around in the environment and that they are more likely to succumb to them when they are stressed. Changing their location, or adding more heat in the rabbitry is not practical, nor is getting up at 1 or 2 in the morning and changing their water again.

What do you all think. Is there another solution to minimizing this stress?

I take it you water them in early morning before work and as soon as you get home in the evening. Would it be worthwhile adding a third run just before bedtime? You'd likely only be doing this temporarily until the weather changes.

Feeding a bit more fresh stuff should help too because they are getting moisture in the greens and are likely to finish those quickly before they have a chance to freeze.

That's all I can think of to reduce the stress. Are the rabbits looking thin or are you simply concerned because you have noticed a decrease in the amount of feed eaten?

One more possibility. If you have snow, it remains consumable longer than water. It's not an ideal way of giving them water, but a dishful in each cage in addition to the water might help.

Sometimes one runs into an emergency. I had one comercial nestbox heater (it cost $25 and they are higher now), but it went belly up, and I needed heaters for 5 nestboxes. I have a couple of infrared heat lamps, but they only heat up what the light hits, and my nestboxes have tops over 2/3 of the box. While they are good for providing some heat in a whole cage, they don't do much for a nestbox, except making the top warm. Since heat travels upward, it is not a good solution.

I have spoken a few times about the inverted coffee can heaters I use, but I thought I would provide some pictures. (note: one can see a little hay has drifted down on the tops of the heaters. While at the present temperatures here, the top of the can does not get that hot, it might be a hazard if thens were warmer.... I cleaned them off right after I took the pictures) I use a 100 watt incandescent bulb.

If you want to make up a few, ideally the insides should be painted with flat black spray paint...with it being 10F outside, now is not a good time for that... I don't think I could get by with doing it in the basement with the woodburner going, either. The original one was made, of all things, a can I had used for a bird feeder. (with the coffee can right side up, a plastic lid on top, and sitting in a plant saucer, they make great bird feeders) If anyone is wanting to know how to make a squirel indestructable one... send me a PM

Just to clarify, AVD, are the nestboxes the large buckets under the heaters? Or am I missing something?

We used a similar coffee can heater to keep the chickens' water pan from freezing the first winter I had chickens. Then I bought a heated water dish. Then I got paranoid about rats chewing the wiring and so now the chickens just get hot water delivered twice a day.

As I was coming home tonight, the farm around the corner had about 4 firetrucks in the driveway, and a shed just billowing smoke from every crevice. I'm pretty sure they raise birds, and I'm wondering if a heater caught on fire. Always a concern. I'm sure I'll find out tomorrow.

I have one heated water bucket - outside for the sheep and waterfowl.

Oh no! That sounds like a horrible nightmare It does make you stop and thing about things, doesn't it?

I'm really trying to come up with a solar powered radiant heat floor system for the angora coop. The other option is to dig it into the side of a hill so we can use the constant temp from the ground.

MaggieJ":3saxx1jx said:

Just to clarify, AVD, are the nestboxes the large buckets under the heaters? Or am I missing something?

We used a similar coffee can heater to keep the chickens' water pan from freezing the first winter I had chickens. Then I bought a heated water dish. Then I got paranoid about rats chewing the wiring and so now the chickens just get hot water delivered twice a day.

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I was thinking that I didn't take the best pictures as I posted this. If one looks closely at the first picture, one can see the bottom of the cage. The cans are about 18" under the nestboxes. My cages ae rather high, so the plastic buckets are for getting them closer to the bottoms

__________ Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:30 am __________

Anntann":3saxx1jx said:

Oh no! That sounds like a horrible nightmare It does make you stop and thing about things, doesn't it?

I'm really trying to come up with a solar powered radiant heat floor system for the angora coop. The other option is to dig it into the side of a hill so we can use the constant temp from the ground.

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Ann, I am not always going to be at my present location, and I have been thinking a lot about the best solution. I am thinking that the best solution is to have the rabbitry built into the side of a hill as much as possible. It not only takes advantage of the earth's mass to mitigate changes in temperature, but it takes advantage of the heat stored down in the earth. This would require careful planing for ventilation, because there could be no "cross-flow" and one would have to provide vents low and high on the exposed side. This is especially important since the earth-touching wall would "sweat" in the spring and early summer when the wall is cooler than the moist outside air.

The building should have the earth side on the north, (the sun shines from the north in the summer) and windows on the south or "open" side. The sun will shine in them during the winter, and help keep the concrete "mass" warm. Shades or curtains would be needed in the early Fall, to keep the sun from shining on the rabbits and making them too hot. My present building is setup somewhat like this... except not dug in to the hill on the north side.

One more adavantage to having the building partialy buried, is that it keeps the wind speed down. The wind is less the closer one is to the ground and since the north part of the building is facing the worst winter winds ( it would be great to have the west end covered too) it helps even more. While my present building has only one small window and some vents on the top edge of the north side, the south side is mostly open.(windowed).

I would probably also put reflective insulation board (shiny side up) under the roof, to reflect the summer heat from the roof back up. Alls this would take a little more adjustment, than the building I have now, since I can open the windows now in the summer, but I have no way to shut off the vents in the winter. I have plenty of ventilation that way, which I think is very important, but it is a problem when it is bitterly cold like it is now, because I can't "hold in" any of the suplementry heat. This cold is unusual, though, and normally it would only occur for a few nights in a typical winter, here.