Updates on the herd (Bordatella, Staph, Pasteurella, etc)

AnnClaire":7wwi02av said:

Hi Stormy, how is your herd doing after your bout with Bordatella? I have referred several people from FB groups to your journey through the illnesses ... I am not sure "we" have saved any rabbits from being put down as pastuerella rabbits, but they can make a more informed decision based on your situation.

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Thanks for asking, AnnClaire. Yes, journey through the illness... LOL (choke, gasp)
So, its been a wild ride. I put down the one rabbit and regretted my decision - the two bucks next to him came down with Bordatella, not Pasteurella. Lots of research turns up that there are many different kinds of respiratory BACTERIA - nevermind the viruses - which can cause respiratory illness including lung rasping and white snot out the nose. (here's a list http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respirator ... al/URI.htm) I think what is distinct about Pasteurella is the lethargy and not feeling well - this can be subtle, as it was in my Hotot doe who seemed healthy but not a lot of energy or "oomph".

After 3-4 weeks of alternating Duo-Pen and LA200 SQ shots that doe is just fine and chipper and gained weight and became a normal pesty rabbit living in our kitchen. Its been maybe 6 weeks since treatment now. I am going to have her re-tested. I have heard - but of course I have no way of knowing how thoroughly accurate this info is without my own personal experience and/or scientific lab results - that some rabbits CAN be cured if they have a non-virulent strain. Knowing how bacteria is constantly mutating, anything is possible, and I'm going to give this sweet girl one more chance.

As for Bordatella... it swept through most of the herd - one guy tested positive but had no symptoms - my colony does whooped and coughed for weeks - but for the most part they seem back to normal, with the following exceptions: One doe when I took her to get re-bred got really upset and began "coughing"... so I am unclear whether its residual from the damage or if Bordatella is sticking around. That part is not clear to me, if they remain carriers or not. If I continue to experience any issues I will treat them but to be honest getting sick of all the anti-biotics since my main goal is to produce healthy food for my family. And my own personal experience with anti-biotics is its a set-up for having more problems down the road - and the real cure is by re-balancing one's microflora in the gut, and I'm giving them kefir periodically to do just that (has more organisms than yogurt). Its been 2 years since my surgery and bout with C-Diff and the antibiotics messed me up so much I am still recovering - they helped me develop a hyper sensitive immune system and digestive system... can't eat half the food and herbs I used to love... being as we're animals too my experience does apply.

And, my buck who also tested positive for Staph (thanks, National Convention) is still suffering a bit from respiratory issues - just a bit but we're going to start a treatment program as it didn't clear on its own. Bordatella is a bit of a catalyst - if there is anything else present in the rabbit, it has a chance to multiply since the Bordatella wipes out the lung hairs that normally expels bacteria & mucus.

The Vent Disease I was treating for months - which may be the culprit why so many came down with Bordatella, according to my vet - the anti-biotics weakens the immune system - may not be vent disease at all. My vet is now thinking its genital warts and wants to remove it. The journey continues... *sigh*

My rabbits also tested for Moraxella... another potentially problematic respiratory pathogen but usually not an issue.

I'm getting another pair of Hotots through West Coast Convention - trying one more time. Keep your fingers crossed for me that they don't bring anything back with them!! I am asking they do not go to the show tables.

I hope this journey through the diseases is helping someone else out there!

I've gotta ask, how much are these tests? I'd love to test all my breeders and separate them by what, if anything, they have and then their offspring to weed out the ill.

There about $20 apiece... I go through the California Animal Health and Food Safety Lab in Turlock:
http://www.cahfs.ucdavis.edu/contact/index.cfm

I think you can do it even if you are out of state. They send you nasal swabs for rabbits and you just overnight them back. Its a life saver to do this without the vet visits! But they won't prescribe anti-biotics or anything like that, you can request a sensitivity report however which will say what antibiotics the pathogen is sensitive too, and I recommend that for anything weird as I've been stuck with my pants down over Staph - thought I could find it on the internet but have only turned up Baytril, which isn't prescribed for food animals.

Good luck with your herd!

I tried looking up the test but couldn't find it as far as how to order, do you just call?

The $20 is super cheap. I spent over $400 in vet fees, tests just having 1 rabbit tested for pretty much everything under the sun only for the vet to come to the conclusion that I was right, it was an ear infection (she had wry neck, no snot or sneezing, no eye darting or other symptoms), which was cultured. We did a few weeks of daily antibitotics (by injection) and then eased it off to a few times a week for another 3 weeks.

At this point, some days my doe is great, other days she just seems off but I think all the meds just wore her down. She is thin and was not so great this weekend but yesterday and today is ravenous so I hope that was the turning point and now she can start getting back into condition. She holds her head almost completely normal at this point but she is still in recovery phase.

Our vet's first inclination was that it was a form of pasturella or e.cuniculi and to just pts. I haven't found a rabbit vet around here that I am confident in. Love my vet for our pets and trust her but for rabbits? Not so much.

I hope you are able to save your herd. It is very discouraging to have sick rabbits and not quite know what is wrong or where they caught it. It sounds like you are going beyond what most people would do and I hope you are successful and they all start on the road to recovery.

hi LauraNJ - so sorry to hear about your rabbit! Sounds like a case of encephalitis cuniculi to me! check out Barbibrownsbunnies.com she's got info on wry neck. And a survey here: http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/survey.htm she's terrific at collecting info and informing others on her website. I've also posted a bunch on this forum about it... I treated my bunny with Baycox and she is just fine now. I have since heard though that Baycox can be too intense for rabbits and might kill them so be careful. I think I only treated for 5 days.
I believe its almost impossible to detect by testing. But it shows up as all kinds of neurological disorders from darting eyes, wry neck, limb paralysis, and more. Its a mysterious fairly newly discovered disease! Try doing an internet search.

Just email the Turlock station under the contact info - they will get right back to you. They're terrific. Request samples for the type of disease you are testing for or ask them what you need. For encephalitis I don't think there is a test but I could be wrong.

Good luck! Keep me posted how it goes.

Stormy, I hope you get to the bottom of this twist on the buck's genetalia ... IIRC, rabbits do suffer from HPV-like disease ... don't remember where I saw it, but it was one of the veterinary sites.

I am glad to hear that you have new stock coming in, and I will say a prayer that they make the journey without any incidence, arriving healthy and hearty.

Stormy- thank you! My rabbit only had the wry neck, no darting eyes, no paralysis, no other symptoms except she had ear mite black gunk way down deep. I did treat with panacur along with the antibiotics which is one of Barbi browns suggestions.

I know barbi brown likes ivermec but there is some evidence that vienna rabbits can have a fatal side effect from it so I really try to avoid anything ivermectin type to use with the BEW beverans. I will check out the baycox. I don't need it at this point but I'm not familiar with it. Good to know these things in advance.

Lola actually rebounded and beginning yesterday (last night) started acting normal. Today she is back to her old self, standing up on her cage, begging for pets, bringing toys to anyone who comes near so I am thinking she is just recovering from medicine overload. I just have to get her back to a healthy weight now and see how she does. I am keeping a daily journal so I can keep track of progress and if we back slide I will know, I am weighing daily also.

Good luck with her! Thanks for the Ivermectin mention being problematic for vienna marked -how bizarre is that? What is going on there?
Anyways I don't remember her treatment recommendations, but...

clarification: its ONE of those symptoms, not ALL on a rabbit. EC can manifest many different ways - as it has in my rabbits - but its one symptom- which can clear up on its own, like the darting eyes, but the paralysis would appear whenever a doe would kindle, then get better. Finally I learned about EC, treated my does and no longer seem to have an issue (and hope no more babies have issues either, we'll see when I breed her again)

Ivermectin reaction can be tested in dogs. I had Aussies way before we had tests and lost one of my Ch., advanced obed and advanced herding degree dogs from it when heartguard first came out. It is a painful death so I am very careful with ivermectin.

The vienna gene, and I have heard that dutch rabbits and some with white in certain areas, are also sensitive to it and it can lead to death. I would think it is more a case of genetics then colors though.

For instance, in Aussies, it doesn't matter what color (blue merle, black tri, etc) your dog is, it is if your dog has the MDR1 (mutated) gene which causes a sensitivity to not only ivermectin but other drugs, such as erythromycin and many others, as well.

I wasn't willing to gamble with Lola since panacur does the same thing pretty much. Lola was titred for e.c. which was negative. The urine test is more accurate but we did all the tests same visit.

She did have an ear infection which was cultured so I really think in Lola's case it was just an ear infection. We did the panacur in case it wasn't showing up in the blood yet. It is just a little crazy how long it takes to cure it.

I was just reading that the newest way to treat e.c. is with steroids, then something to treat the parasites. That the brain lesions are now thought by some vets to be caused by swelling in the brain so by using steroids and reducing swelling in the brain, it makes treatment/recovery more successful. It is very interesting the different treatments being used.

I am so sad to hear about your dog! I can only imagine the pain... although I lost my closest companion I've ever had to routine dental cleaning - so I guess I can imagine it - they always say how safe everything is but oops - there is this 2% thing where things go wrong.
Thanks for the Ivermectin tip off... I have been giving it to my horse. Maybe I ought to do more research to find out how toxic it really is... and glad to hear Panacur is safer.
Noting Aussies have a dog version of the vienna gene, right! how odd the parallels.
Glad Lola is doing better!

I don't think there is any issues with horses, cattle, sheep, etc. It is dogs and yes Aussies when merle to merle is bred, have a double merle( aka fatal merle aka lethal white) which should be culled at birth. Mine was many years ago, in the 80s when heartguard first came out and was actually at a much higher dose than it is now.

The only issue that I know of with horses is if a dog who has MDR1 eats the horses poop. If I am remembering correctly a sheltie or collie ate some horse poop after the horse had been dosed with ivermectin and the dog died.

Hopefully Lola is better, she seems to be. Now I am at the reconditioning her part. It is so much more difficult to diagnosis rabbits than it is dogs. Besides trying to find an experienced rabbit vet. Hopefully you have yours on the road to recovery and your new ones come problem free.

I found an awesome mini rex for sale but I am so paranoid at this point about not introducing anything that I think I am going to pass on getting him.

The hotots are so cute. Hope you get them!

Your dog had a lethal white gene and was alive? I am curious here if I understood you right... he was white? Again, sorry about the tragedy with your pup! sounds like he was a miracle to be alive at all.

I stayed paranoid for about 2 weeks then lined up getting 2 more rabbits hauled long distance - LOL! Saying of course this is it, no more if these two have issues, I'll give up on Hotots and focus on the other breeds. (though I'm also eyeing the American Chinchillas as a possible replacement - heh) Wish me luck I get them next week. I too have had that big crashing reality check of OMG these little cute bunnies carry nasty diseases but I'll just be careful and quarantine until I know for sure. I'll probably get these guys tested to be on the safe side of knowing if they are bringing anything in.

I am sad for the day I didn't have to deal with all this and my bunnies were healthy as can be... part of it is in fact my vet misdiagnosing Vent Disease and me treating it 4 times for a month each, wrecking their immune systems so Bordatella could sweep through... so for me it wasn't just the new stock that was the problem (it was the letting my bunnies roam free and pick things up from wild rabbits that was a problem!)
Not that I'm mad at her - its pretty easy to do given the bumpy growths, but it was a major drag and majorly bad to give that much antibiotics to these guys.

After these Hotots I'm going to just lay low with trying to pull a full recovery on everyone, even my little buck with warts. But knowing me probably won't keep my hands off getting new stock

(I say, check out that mini-Rex! LOL)

Sorry, no, fatal whites are culled, or should be, at birth. They will go blind and/or deaf, usually both by the time they are 2 yrs old.

So at 8 weeks, they seem normal but then will suddenly go blind and deaf. Many new breeders fall for thinking theirs will be ok. THe MDR1 gene isn't dependent on the dog's color. The one I lost was a blue merle but it could have easily of been my black tri.

So funny that you too are considering the American Chins. I was also considering them. Have a breeder somewhat near me and one in NC near dh so he could pick a couple up. It is so tempting.

I am trying to stay focused on the mini rexes and try to get a litter of beveran kits. If the beveran doe doesn't do anything then I may just switch to a different breed as I have had issues and just weird, bad luck with them and it is discouraging. And then I start to get a little paranoid and wonder if there is something else going on that I just don't know.

My beverans all ended up in the same area as my mini rexes during Sandy for a week and I have had 0 issues with them so I really think it is just a fluke. At some point it will get easy.

And yes, I may send dh to check out the mini rex. Actually 2 are for sale and my husband would probably just buy both. DH came up with putting the new mini rex in the garage for quarantine so they aren't near the beverans or mini rex (seperate areas).

He is really great with picking up buns and driving them up here. He just got a new car but he says he'll just put something down on the backseat before he puts the cage in.

Stormy,

I think you have had just about the worst crash course on why some people simply will cull for ill health ... it can seem a bit harsh to those who have never had to deal with what you have. And demonstrating the value of a rabbit-savy vet! Hopefully, your vet did some research of their own!

I really sympathise over your heartache and all the hours of worry and hope the new ones come in bouncing with good health and awesome personalities!