worms! lymph nodes! icky lung! oh my! HELP!!

[mytdogs]

K- gotta make this quick...I am processing some rabbits i bought from a local guy. This is my first time.

1. I can see worms-pin worms? in the cecum-gag!
2. The rabbit's Lymph nodes seem awfully large....but again I am a newbie
3. The cranial lung lobe- closest to the head- is very mottled- not filled with puss or anything just a purple (lavender?) color with darker pin point blood spots....not sure what this is & if it is related to the other 2 issues.

Kidney's, liver, other lungs & heart looked okay AFAICT.

The rabbit was killed with CO2 if that helps. I tried to take pix with my cell phone but they aren't so good.

Should any of the above prevent me from feeding this rabbit to my dog (AFTER I COOK IT)????

Thanks!!
MyT

 

[MaggieJ]

Do you just feed the meat or the entrails as well? Pin worms are not a huge deal in themselves, although rather gross, and not something you would want in your dogs. I think cooking would take care of that.

The purple mottling of the lung COULD POSSIBLY be from the CO2... I'm not sure. No clue about the lymph nodes.

Why not contact the person you bought them and ask about the effects of CO2? Or do a Google search?<br /><br />__________ Sat May 29, 2010 5:59 am __________<br /><br />

 

[Anntann]

Purple is an indication of lack of oxygen. Like when someone is poisoned by Cyanide gas, or strangled or smothered...the lips will turn blue(purple). Anyplace that the veins are close to the surface will go dark blue or purpley

 

[mytdogs]

Yes, Maggie, this is my eldest dog & she has Inflammatory Bowel Disease (among other things) so I have to feed her COOKED rabbit only & i am not cooking intestines in the crock pot. I'd hate to give her something else to deal with but I was desperate to find some rabbit meat. If I was not so desperate I probably would've thrown them out. My house still reeks from their smell. The crock pot is not giving off the normal fresh cooked smell- everything has tinge of....urine? odor

I don't think I'll get any more rabbits from him. The rabbits were huge! Flemish giant mutts but the dress out wasn't that great. Also the worms are a sign (to me) that he isn't caring for his rabbits very well. I have some processing questions but I will start a separate thread for those.

Thanks!<br /><br />__________ Sat May 29, 2010 9:33 am __________<br /><br />Hi Ann,

Yes, all 6 rabbits had the cranial lung lobe affected so I am betting that is what it is. All other lungs were healthy in appearance. Aside from that, there was no other sign that they had CO2.

Does anybody here use CO2? I saw a video promoting CAK or CAS Controlled Atmosphere Killing/Stunning for the poultry industry & it was amazing. The video is on P*TA's website and I never thought I'd ever agree with them on anything but the video is very compelling.

I watched the guy do the CO2 (told him I was curious). It was painless & not stressful at all for me or the buns.

Here is a link to the video- hope this is okay...I am in no way promoting P*TA. Warning it is graphic but worthwhile to see. http://www.peta.org/cak/

Thanks for your help!
MyT

 

[Anntann]

I don't know a lot about CO2 with the animals, other than it's what my vet uses on small animals that have to be put down. And what I've read here and on other forums, of course. I suspect that if I had to kill my own rabbits, I'd use it. (Fortunately, my SO does all the processing of critters here, so I'm not forced into a decision).

Doesn't really matter if you're promoting them, btw. Everyone gets to have an opinion. And personally...I would find it highly amusing to read a thread promoting them ... authored by a person processing rabbits to feed to their dogs...particularly in a forum on MEAT rabbits :lol:

 

[mytdogs]

Doesn't really matter if you're promoting them, btw. Everyone gets to have an opinion. And personally...I would find it highly amusing to read a thread promoting them ... authored by a person processing rabbits to feed to their dogs...particularly in a forum on MEAT rabbits :lol:

:clap2: Good point Ann! I can just imagine there must be all kinds of folks trolling around on the net looking to proselytize or start a fight...didn't want anyone suspecting me

 

[pfaubush]

I would find it highly amusing to read a thread promoting them ... authored by a person processing rabbits to feed to their dogs...particularly in a forum on MEAT rabbits :lol:

Ah, yes. That would be a head scratcher! LOL

I asked a friend that uses CO2 and that does cause what you describe in the lungs. As far as the lymph nodes, in as many rabbits as I've butchered, I don't even know what the lymph nodes would look like.

 

[Brody]

coudln't pay me to gas (with C02) an animal to death .. however I'll have to think back to see why I feel that stringly about it

(keep in mind I have been paid to kill animals)

if my vet uses gas for euthanasia she uses isoflorine - our vet association has a very string statement against the use of C02 for euthanasia

 

[mytdogs]

Yes Brody please do think back because I too am paid to euthanize animals and I couldn't imagine a more peaceful (no pain, no struggle) death than what I saw. I think using inflammatory terms like "gassing" does not help people make educated, objective judgments about the procedure. The technical term is called controlled atmosphere killing (or stunning). Basically the CO2 is slowly pumped in & replaces the oxygen in the tank.

http://www.greenlivingtips.com/blogs/358/Controlled-atmosphere-killing.html

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/poultrynews/15051/kfc-canada-commit-to-100-cak-meat-purchase

Keep in mind that while CO2 is non-toxic (it is an asphyxiant), Isoflorane (ISO) has a strong odor-some claim that it burns when inhaled- and it is toxic. I have been a vet tech for over 20 years & I can attest to the fact that animals in the ISO chamber struggle as compared to the buns I saw in the CO2 chamber. They simply got sleepy & fell asleep right where they lay- no stress, no struggle- nothing but and increased respiratory rate. It took maybe 5 minutes.

That is interesting about the vet association policy- can you tell me which association that is? I would like to understand why they are so against it since it seems so peaceful & non-violent. I will check into our own association here in FL too.

 

[Marian]

I had mottled lungs once or twice and I use a pellet gun to butcher. I always attributed it to a bit of blood leaking after death.

When I looked into the types of killing methods for rabbits I seriously considered CO2, I decided against it for several reasons:
~It seems only recommended for rabbits under 1 kilo, mine are always bigger than that.
~Some labs that used to use CO2 have decided not to use it because they didn't consider it the most humane.
~All recommendations say to use a glass enclosure as the killing chamber so the animal can be watched the whole time and removed if distressed. Putting a rabbit in a non-transparent bin is not recommended. I don't have a glass enclosure and I don't want a method where that rabbit may have to be removed due to distress, I'll end up with a live rabbit and a lot more sadness. Not a good end result. Even after three plus years, I still feel sadness for every rabbit I butcher so I really want them to go fast and painless.

Please keep in mind I did this research three - four years ago so there might be new info I'm not aware of.

 

[mytdogs]

The buns I watched were in a wooden box with a clear Plexiglas top- there were 6 Flemish/NZW crosses at once- again no distress or struggle at all. One commercial grower (in VA? or PA?-can't remember) uses a clear Rubbermaid type bin- the kind that slides under the bed. The key is to use the smallest bin possible (or fill the bin up) so that you start with less O2 to have to displace.

There wasn't any bleeding. I know it is an issue for some to have bruising around the base of the skull ruin the "all white meat" aspect of rabbit meat and CAK solves that problem. I will be processing for dogs so that won't make a difference to me.

If I ever process my own rabbits I will use this method & make a video so that you can see how humane it is.

 

[Brody]

I'm well aware of the reaction when small animals are euthanzized with Isoflorane (ISO) having a policy of not letting animals under my care be euthanzied without me present or being the one to do it).

I used gassing as the term here not to be inflamatory but to be specific - controlled atmosphere killing is perhaps not as clearly understood by lay people .. and let's be serious, it is gassing

http://www.research.utas.edu.au/animal_ ... nimals.pdf
states clearly "Recent literature on rats and mice concludes that carbon dioxide is the least
preferred inhalation agent when compared to halothane, isoflurane, enflurane,
desflurane, sevoflurane and argon." and "In summary, it is recommended that the scientific community carefully reconsider the routine use of carbon dioxide as a sole agent for anaesthesia or euthanasia
and adopt these more humane practices wherever possible."

It is my belief, built on years of reading and speaking to experts when I was a euthanization tech, that CO2 is not as humane as we'd like to think it is

Rabbits are fairly stoic creatures who survive by hiding discomfort and pain to say that simply because they lay still and quiet means it was a good death seems a little optimistic to me.
Is it the worst way to die? Certainly not .. am I going to judge any method that people use with the belief it is humane and the effort to make it as humane as possible? no - that's really not my style

 

[HendricksHearth]

I posted about this on another forum a while ago, but when someone (not a vet or lab) says they used CO2 for euthanasia on rabbits, they are almost always talking about the dry-ice method. I personally do not ever plan to use CO2 as a method for dispatching rabbits because I do not feel it is humane unless done at very exacting measurements in a controlled environment (and even then there can be room for error with the differing physiology of individual rabbits), which the majority of us would never have the ability to offer. Also, according to the American Veterinary Medical Association Guidelines on Euthanasia, the percentage of carbon dioxide is what makes the death humane and the only way to control this is through the use of a compressed CO2 gas cylinder, not through dry ice unfortunately. Without regulating the percentage of carbon dioxide in the chamber the research in the article said that the animals could and would experience distress prior to unconsciousness. Sometimes they would stand on their hind legs if given enough head room to try to breath the oxygen above them. Even though the animals didn't cry out or move, they would reportedly experience discomfort because the carbon dioxide would react with their mucous membranes and dissolve the moisture from their body prior to unconsciousness, the product of which is carbonic acid. They might look still and "peaceful" in the clear bin, but their distress can be measured after death through their blood chemistry (ACTH, glucose, cortisone, etc.). We all know they are good at hiding pain, so to me this method is far from fool-proof. The article also specifically notes that rabbits, as a burrowing animal, have prolonged survival times and physiological mechanisms for coping with the excess CO2 compared to other species. That means that rabbits can take much longer to suffocate than say, a dog or chicken would and without the proper measured percentage of CO2 in their chamber. So they can not only experience the suffocation (even humans report CO2 as noxious at higher levels), but can also develop pulmonary and upper respiratory tract lesions before they die, too. I am betting that is why the lungs were discolored in the animals the OP was processing.

I guess the bottom line for me is that I personally would never opt for smothering when there are other quicker/instant/painless ways to go about it, so I wouldn't choose C02 (dry ice OR compressed cylinder) for my rabbits, either.

Best of luck,

Lauren

EDIT: Here is the link for anyone who is interested in reading the AVMA guidelines: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfa ... anasia.pdf

To find the sections on rabbits, you can do a ctrl+f search.

 

[MaggieJ]

I think it is good to discuss these things openly. I admit when I first looked into CO2 as a possible means of slaughtering meat rabbits, it sounded pretty good. Then, on further reading, maybe not so good. It takes a bit of time to work... and that bothered me.

Once I found out that a pellet gun was strong enough to do the job instantly, it became the only method we use. It is quick and sure... the animal has no time for distress or pain beyond the instant of impact.

 

[mytdogs]

I'm well aware of the reaction when small animals are euthanzized with Isoflorane (ISO) having a policy of not letting animals under my care be euthanzied without me present or being the one to do it).

Since you said you were paid to euthanize animals, I presumed as much. However, I mentioned the typical reaction of animals in the ISO chamber for the benefit of others reading this thread who may have no knowledge of gassing with anesthetics such as Isoflurane (ISO).

I used gassing as the term here not to be inflamatory but to be specific - controlled atmosphere killing is perhaps not as clearly understood by lay people .. and let's be serious, it is gassing

Well since you want to get serious...we are not really discussing euthanasia- we are discussing the killing of rabbits (as humanely as possible) for meat to be consumed by humans or other animals & therefore we can not have residues of anesthetic drugs in the rabbits. So the choice is not really between "approved" anesthetic gassing & CO2 gassing. The choice for me is between CO2 and "broomsticking"- the euphemism for separating (manually tearing) the skull from the neck off of a live, fully conscious rabbit. Or as some people choose, smashing them in the head (thus crushing the skull) with shovels or clubs of all sorts- again while they are alive & fully conscious. Still another option for some is shooting them, which I've heard is the fastest way to kill them but it relies heavily on operator's ability to damage the brain itself to allow for instant loss of consciousness.

http://www.research.utas.edu.au/ani..._use_for_euthanasia_of_laboratory_animals.pdf
states clearly "Recent literature on rats and mice concludes that carbon dioxide is the least preferred inhalation agent when compared to halothane, isoflurane, enflurane, desflurane, sevoflurane and argon." and "In summary, it is recommended that the scientific community carefully reconsider the routine use of carbon dioxide as a sole agent for anaesthesia or euthanasia and adopt these more humane practices wherever possible."

First, this article actually cites the H$U$. That automatically makes anything they say suspect in my eyes. In addition, your quote relates directly to recent literature on rats and mice.

Second, we are not talking about humane euthanasia- we are talking about humane slaughter. Comparing the use of CO2 "gassing" to "gassing" with isoflorane, sevoflorane, halothane, methoxflurane, etc...etc... is completely useless & irrelevant. I did post in the MEAT rabbit section right??

Third, if you read the table at the bottom of your article you will see that the authors actually added cervical dislocation (tearing the head off the spine) as a viable option ***only IF the rabbit is less than 150 grams (1/3 of a pound)! And they admit that cervical dislocation does not cause instantaneous loss of consciousness. They also discuss that Decapitation takes 3-6 seconds before loss of consciousness. We can presume that tearing the spinal cord will have similar effect to slicing it (except that it may be more painful).

It is my belief, built on years of reading and speaking to experts when I was a euthanization tech, that CO2 is not as humane as we'd like to think it is

Well as Ann pointed out, we are all entitled to our beliefs. And after several years of careful thought & research, I believe that CO2 is the most humane/non-violent way I can slaughter my rabbits. I do not have someone to do the "dirty work" for me. I do not want to apply violent methods to animals that have grown to trust me/that come to my hand for food. I am sure none of us enjoys "processing" our rabbits but we do it with whatever method we decide is the best for our situation.

Rabbits are fairly stoic creatures who survive by hiding discomfort and pain to say that simply because they lay still and quiet means it was a good death seems a little optimistic to me.

I looked back at my prior posts & I never saw where I reported that CO2 gassing was a "good death". In one post I said it was painless & for that I apologize. I should have said that it appeared painless, especially when compared to the videos I saw detaching the skull from the spine with a broomstick or even with the Rabbit Wringer, or clubbing them with a shovel, or even shooting them in the head. All methods mentioned above being equal with respect to the rabbits; I am most comfortable with CO2 because it is non-violent and the rabbits appear to not be in pain or distressed. So that makes it the best method for me. That way I do not have to rely on my skill at manual killing to humanely process my rabbits.

Is it the worst way to die? Certainly not .. am I going to judge any method that people use with the belief it is humane and the effort to make it as humane as possible? no - that's really not my style

Ah, but you are judging- by posting an article & reporting to everyone how inhumane my choices are and forcing me into defending them.
Honestly, my impression is that you are against raising rabbits for meat at all. So perhaps you are biased in this discussion from the start?

 

[Brody]

I am not judging -I apologize if it came across that way, the only way I ould be judgemental was if the processor had no intention of considering humanity. Your comment triggered a memory about CO2 that I wanted to think about - I was asked to give it more thought piblically so I did. I am aware that the study I quoted was about mice and rats but it seemed relevant to me. To be completely frank I didn't have time to read it in it's entirity.
I don't raise rabbits for meat and I've never hidden that however I think people who raise meat humanely, process it and eat (or sell) it are to be applauded for him their efforts.
I have killed and been responsible for enough deaths in animals that I have particular baises, that I will certainly agree with. If you are content with CO2 and it works for you and your animals that's great. There are methods of death that bother me much more.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Exactly how long does this CO2 take to work? As opposed to 3 to 6 seconds for cervical dislocation. I mean the gas would have to be instantaneous then to be better or more peaceful.Also for meat purposes it is advisable to bleed them out extremely quickly. Broomsticking allows for quick and easy head removal within that 3 second timeframe as shown in Donna's video.