Wide Band colour identification?

[RustyPocket]

Hello. My name is Marko and this is my 1st time posting here. I previously posted this on Rabbits United and Rabbit Retreat, but those were not of much help.

*PLEASE NOTE: My parents breed for commercial purposes and I do not take part in it, but am interested in genetics and breeding for looks! I don't get to change the conditions in which rabbits are housed!*

About 8 days ago, one of my parent's does, a (Black) Chinchilla, kindeled her second litter. So far, she was mated with a Checkered Giant mix, a Broken (?Chocolate?) Chestnut Agouti and in first litter had an outcome of a Black Chinchilla, a Blue Chinchilla (???), two Agouties (a Chocolate Chestnut Agouti buck and Chestnut Agouti doe), three Black Pointed Whites and a Black Otter. In this litter however, she has only 4 babies, two Whites (based on doe's and buck's previous litter, most likely BPW), one (?Chocolate?) Chestnut Agouti Charlie (actually, markings of a Spot breed) and a kit of unknown colour. I have been wanting a Wide Band group rabbit (as a pet) for a long time, but I had hard times finding one where I live (Croatia). My problem is; all four colours of the group look alike to me (I am a newbie to rabbits and genetics ). So, I am posting pics of mum, dad and the unknown-coloured baby and hope someone around here can at least try to help me determain this baby's colouring.

I did try to figure it out (mostly by Kim's Rabbit Hutch Calculator), but every time I considere all the kits from the doe's both litter, I get confused. My rabbits are not of a certain breed, were also bought from comercial breeders.

DAD:

MUM:

Previous litter pair, a Black Otter and what I would call Blue Chinchilla based on the internet:

First litter:

Second litter:

The baby:




So, if anyone has experience in breeding rabbits of wide band group, or knows how those colors work, please help. Thank you in advance.

*PLEASE NOTE: My parents breed for commercial purposes and I do not take part in it, but am interested in genetics and breeding for looks! I don't get to change the conditions in which rabbits are housed!*

__________ Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:28 am __________

I am kinda new to rabbit genetics and am still learning about it. As far as my research went (considering both her litters with same buck), the mum's genotype would be: A(at) Bb c(chd/ch3)c Dd Ee enen, and dad's (paying attention to two litters with the mum doe, and one with another one (Californian)) is: Aa Bb Cc(h) Dd Ee Enen. What matters me is the fact that the mum doe and dad buck did have three points in previous litter (one of them a Black Pointed White doe my parents are keeping) and a Black Otter, which means mum should also carry one a, but she already has A and a(t). The dad carries a 100% since his and Cali's babies were points and one solid Black. Then again, if she didn't carry A or a(t), she wouldn't be Chinchilla or the Otter would be impossible... It is extremely confusing.

 

[Dood]

Welcome to rabbit talk

I assume you were berated on other forums about how your rabbits are kept - that won't happen here, we are a pretty civil bunch and accept that rabbits can be kept in a wide variety of ways

The orange kit of unknown colour is A_ B_ C_ D_ ee and called "fawn" over here and is part if the "wideband" group (although this particular colour doesnt actually have the wideband gene - confusing right :mrgreen: )

What matters me is the fact that the mum doe and dad buck did have three points in previous litter (one of them a Black Pointed White doe my parents are keeping) and a Black Otter,

I think you are confused about the tan {at} gene that makes otters, martens and tans and the himilayan gene {c(h)} that makes pointed whites.

The otter kit will be - at a B_ C_ D_ E_

While the black pointed whites (himilayan) will be __ __ __ c(h)_ __ __

 

[michaels4gardens]

Hello. My name is Marko and this is my 1st time posting here. I previously posted this on Rabbits United and Rabbit Retreat, but those were not of much help.

*PLEASE NOTE: My parents breed for commercial purposes and I do not take part in it, but am interested in genetics and breeding for looks! I don't get to change the conditions in which rabbits are housed!*

Hay Marco-- welcome to rabbit talk-- and--- nice pictures--

 

[RustyPocket]

Welcome to rabbit talk

...The orange kit of unknown colour is A_ B_ C_ D_ ee and called "fawn" over here and is part if the "wideband" group (although this particular colour doesnt actually have the wideband gene - confusing right :mrgreen: )...

...I think you are confused about the tan {at} gene that makes otters, martens and tans and the himilayan gene {c(h)} that makes pointed whites.

The otter kit will be - at a B_ C_ D_ E_

While the black pointed whites (himilayan) will be __ __ __ c(h)_ __ __

Finally someone that speaks my language. I mean, some were really into making me believe that babie is and Chestnut Agouti.... Now, I see that Fawns, Oranges and Reds have same genotypes. That that mean that other genes (those W,V, and so on) are different from one colour to another? As for the Black Otter/BPW, I was only adressed that BPW must be aa, buit actually what matters is the c(h) gene, am I getting this right?

__________ Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:12 pm __________

Thank you so much, by the way... <br /><br /> __________ Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:15 pm __________ <br /><br />

Hay Marco-- welcome to rabbit talk-- and--- nice pictures--

Thank you. It's nice how people are polite over here. It seems like the goal of some other place is to make you feel uncomfotable, and here I already feel like part of the society.

 

[skysthelimit]

Now, I see that Fawns, Oranges and Reds have same genotypes. That that mean that other genes (those W,V, and so on) are different from one colour to another? As for the Black Otter/BPW, I was only adressed that BPW must be aa, buit actually what matters is the c(h) gene, am I getting this right?

Depending on the breed, Fawns and Reds are not the same. All color names are not universally matched to the same genotype here. For me Red is Black based and Fawn is Chocolate based. Orange I have no idea what it is, not one of my normal color names. Drives me up the wall sometimes.

Pointed Whites should be aa, but that is not always the case. Some pointed whites are Agouti based, and you can get martenized pointed whites too. If there is not color under the tail, it's not a self based PW.

 

[RustyPocket]

Depending on the breed, Fawns and Reds are not the same. All color names are not universally matched to the same genotype here. For me Red is Black based and Fawn is Chocolate based. Orange I have no idea what it is, not one of my normal color names. Drives me up the wall sometimes.

Pointed Whites should be aa, but that is not always the case. Some pointed whites are Agouti based, and you can get martenized pointed whites too. If there is not color under the tail, it's not a self based PW.

As far as I know, Fawn would be an Orange with more minus modifier/rufus, which causes their orangeness to be lighter the original Orange would be, then with Reds, you have more plus rufus genes, which makes their orangeness more prominant, or shall I say, red. I am just not sure, since it seems every breed has it's own standards and different explanations of how the things work.

Some of the pointed whites my parents breed don't have their undertails coloured, those are white. So if I undersatnd you correctly, those are in fact agouti based PW, and it would make their points not black, but some of the agouti colour?

 

[Dood]

I was only adressed that BPW must be aa, buit actually what matters is the c(h) gene, am I getting this right?

correct. This gene and the red eye white gene (cc) hide a rabbits true genetic colour under a white coat so you can get agouti pointed whites - A_ __ c(h)_ __ __ that can be identified by the white under their tails and otter = ata __ c(h)_ __ __ that are not showable as well as or self based = aa __ c(h)_ __ __

In fawns, oranges and reds the wideband gene (ww) will produce rabbits like New Zealand reds and Triantras (= A_ B_ C_ D_ ee ww) that look self based but are actually agouti. Since this kit has a creamy white belly colour instead of orange it lacks the wideband gene.

Rufus factors are not on a specific gene locus but are modifiers that intensify the red tones produced and are written out as "4+" or "++++" in bright red rabbits and "1+" or "+" in yellower ones like sandy Flemish giants

 

[RustyPocket]

OK. Thank you a lot skysthelimit and Dood. What we established is that the baby (still nameless) is a Fawn with genetic makeup of A_ B_ C_ D_ ee enen, right? All this genetics seems so hard in the beggining, rhen you think you got it, but it turns out it's just one piece of the puzzle you met so far. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:35 am __________ <br /><br /> OK. Thank you a lot skysthelimit and Dood. What we established is that the baby (still nameless) is a Fawn with genetic makeup of A_ B_ C_ D_ ee enen, right? All this genetics seems so hard in the beggining, rhen you think you got it, but it turns out it's just one piece of the puzzle you met so far.

 

[Dood]

Correct

 

[skysthelimit]

OK. Thank you a lot skysthelimit and Dood. What we established is that the baby (still nameless) is a Fawn with genetic makeup of A_ B_ C_ D_ ee enen, right? All this genetics seems so hard in the beggining, rhen you think you got it, but it turns out it's just one piece of the puzzle you met so far.

.

I think of genetics as a chess game. You have to learn all the moves each player can make, and that's based on the rank of each player. I think Agouti should be Queen, lol.

I bet Dood is a good chess player.