Why not breed with a young buck?

[Zab]

Ok, I've read that does should be bred at 6-7 months and bucks at 7-8 months.

Wether or not the number of months is ''right'' according to you, why should the buck be older?

I can see why people are hesitant to breed young does, afterall the doe will carry the kits and squeeze them out and all, there's more room for complications. But why wait with the buck?

I let my new 4 month buck meet Kyndel today. He tried his best but didn't hit the spot.. and she looked very bored: "At least I get to eat his food.." :lol: But as far as I figure, only two things can happen: He succeeds and she gets preggers, which she should handle fine since she's an experienced doe. Or he fails, either at the act or at the ''getting her pregnant'' part.. and then nothing. What am I missing? Where is the third option that makes it bad to let him breed her before he's 8 months old?

As it is I don't really care if she takes or not; it's nice with more kits but not necessary. I hope Kummin will give me some soon anyhow.

I can see why some types of breeders want the buck to develop and see how he looks before they decide.. but that's not really what you think when someone say it's bad to breed an animal too soon. Is that the whole reason?

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I'd say as soon as his testicles descend, it should be okay to breed him unless you have some other reason to wait.

 

[Zab]

Thanks

If he succeeds to cover her with the whole falling off and acting like a dramaqueen act, is there less chance that she's preggers than it would be with an older buck? Let's assume he cover her 3-4 times during their date.

 

[fuzzy9]

I just successfully bred a 4 month old buck to a couple of my NZ does. He's a very aggressive breeder, and knew his job right away. Both does took, the first doe he bred gave me 5, and the next litter was 7.

Like Kyle said, as soon as the testicles drop. Some may not be as confident as others, and it may take a while to know what their job is. My junior buck was caged right next to the buck I used on a more regular basis, and although I'm not sure if that even made a difference or not, I know for a fact he was paying very close attention when the other buck was breeding. I'd see him marking things in his cage and such.

I have another 4 month old junior NZB buck who has been marking on a regular basis, and he's about to get his first try at breeding this weekend.

 

[TMTex]

I bred my 4 month old Flemish buck to a first timer NZW (9 months) and a veteran Cali (> 1 year) recently. Neither doe liked my pure NZW buck at the time, even though the Cali is nursing his kits.

Both does liked the Flemish and he covered each one twice very quickly. He's like an old pro at this young age. I guess you can tell that I'm pretty proud of him.

Luckily, another NZW doe liked my NZW buck, so I can continue the pedigree, too.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

What am I missing? Where is the third option that makes it bad to let him breed her before he's 8 months old?

I think the reason is that sometimes young male animals can be "put off" breeding if put with an aggressive female.

As long as you are there to monitor the situation and make sure he doesn't get bullied, there is no reason to wait that I can see.

 

[Zab]

What am I missing? Where is the third option that makes it bad to let him breed her before he's 8 months old?

I think the reason is that sometimes young male animals can be "put off" breeding if put with an aggressive female.

Oh guess what just happened?

My mellow, nice ''never do anythig rash'' doe went from lying with a nice lifted position to spin around and bite in what could be world record. She tore a large gash in his thigh. Then she ignored him completely.

Needless to say I separated them as soon as I could catch him, although he didn't seem hurt at first. Flipped him over and found the gash in all that fluffy fur. It's a couple of inches long and has a loose piece of skin flappin about, fortunatley no blood and it seems the membranes closest to the muscles are intact. Poor thing was terrified (of me) but lied nicely once he was flipped. I'm starting to like that trait, my other trio doesn't have it.. though they're calmer in general (maybe that's why, they won't panic from it)
Anyhow.. washed it off and after some thinking desided to spray liquid bandaid on it. Tried to close the gap by tangeling the fur a bit. I couldn't figure a safe way to put a regular bandage on. I'll have to keep an eye on that so it won't get infected or start developing nasty pus or something, creating an abscess.. If I can catch him again.. that spray stings and he wasn't too much handeled before :/
I'm glad it's so shallow and no blood at all (thanks for white fur, very convenient). Well that ends his quality time for a while. Untill that's fully healed he won't meet another rabbit and next time...

..actually I don't know how to prevent it from happening again? The doe was ready (dark red and swollen), acted all nice and lied down for him, lifting her butt and seemed like the perfect teacher. Then suddenly just spun around. I'm not even sure she attempted to injure, she looked pretty surprised herself. Are there muzzles for rabbits? :? I had no time to react and couldn't see any red flags..

I do hope he'll be okay.. not that great to lose a new breeding buck due to an infection. But I think he will be. Concidering how well the rat-bitten kit healed up and so...

 

[dragonladyleanne]

I actually had heard the opposite as far as "what age are they ready to breed", being 4 months for small breed bucks, versus 6 months for the does, and 6 months for large breed bucks, 8 months for the does. My Champagne/SF doe that got bred supposedly before I bought her, and then again a month later to ALL the breeder's bucks over a 3 day period without taking, caught finally by my barely 6 month old buck (by then she was almost a year old), who basically crowed his success and fell over holding on to her! The only other "rule" I have heard regarding age differences is that it's best not to have 2 virgins together, so an older buck to a first time doe, or a first-time buck to an experienced doe, or to one who is not getting pregnant by older bucks (provided she is not aggressive).

-- ooh, sorry, just read about the bite! I do hope it heals. So far, none of my does ever tried to bite the bucks, just each other the one time I thought 2 "sweeties" could share the grazing run (20' x 25' and not enough for 2!), and 2 males with one in a cage, but he laid open the other's nose when he got too curious.

 

[grumpy]

Young bucks work well...IF...you don't have an old doe
beat the stuffin's out of 'em. They can become very timid
if a doe gets aggressive with them when they are young.

I "never" leave a young buck unattended when a doe is with him.
I "never" let the doe ride the buck.
I "never" put a cranky old hag in with a young buck. That's what your senior bucks are there for.

If traumatized too much, the young male may well be a liability later on.
Slow to mate, tentative in approach, reluctant to mount.
All of these take time away from day to day chores. Additionally...it's frustrating.

If handled properly...a young buck is worth his weight in gold right about now.
They tend to stay fertile longer during the heat of the summer compared to older bucks.
Your older bucks will begin to molt when the temps go up.

grumpy.

 

[Zab]

So grumpy (or anyone); what to do when you supervise an older, normally sweet doe and she suddenly spins and bites? :/

Hold them down? What if the buck refuse to mount due to being distracted by your hands (if holding the doe is an option)?

Or what to do to avoid the bad experience from damaging the buck?

 

[fuzzy9]

If I had a doe like that, I wouldn't put her in with my young buck, I would definitely put her with a more seasoned breeder, and someone who could handle her attitude.

I think there can be a difference, aggressive, vs a doe who is so "in the mood" that she's spinning the buck, trying to mount him. One of my does did do that to my junior buck, but he was confident enough that he knew his job, and wasn't intimidated. They are both easy breeders, and I don't believe I would have tried him if I knew they weren't.

And I agree with grumpy, I never leave them unattended, I stay at the front of the cage the whole time to make sure there are no problems.

My bucks won't breed if I hold the doe down, but I have had an aggressive doe get to aggressive with my buck. I took her out, and tried her again the next day, and she bred without issue. The only other time I've had that happen was with a new doe I was trying to breed in quarantine to a new buck I had. She refused to breed! Two weeks later.......5 little kits on the wire......never knew she was bred!

 

[grumpy]

most of my old bucks will service a doe if I restrain the doe for them

You can, at times, nearly hear a sigh of relief when I assist them. LOL.

"Whew!Thanks Pop! She's too fast and it's too hot."

Seriously, get your bucks very used to being handled and petted.
Make them your 'buddies' and they'll service a doe without paying
you no never mind.

A young buck gets whipped pretty bad,
he'll consider the 'butt-whipping'
he's gonna get ain't worth the lovin' he wants.
"Ha-Ha...thanks but no thanks."

it does affect them without question.
sometimes it will nearly ruin them.

grumpy.

 

[WallTenter]

I bred a 4 month old buck (on his 4mo birthday) and got 11 and 9 (second and first time mothers). He was an outcross so I wanted to breed him then resell him while he was still young and desirable.

I did make sure both does were receptive before putting them in with him (run your hand on their rump against the hair and they will happily lift and will scoot back into your hand if they are really willing). It took him a minute to realize what to do with the first doe but the second doe he got immediately. I bred both does within ten minutes of each other, bred them only once.

 

[Zab]

The doe never done anything like that before or I wouldn't have put her in with them.

My old buck tolerates me well enough, but the young one doesn't know me yet and isn't handeled much before. Perhaps I was too eager to try him, but then again.. the doe has never been aggressive before even if she hasn't been in the mood (didn't even check for that the first few times I bred her). The mistake has happened and I'm asking advice to help it... ''he's ruined'' isn't very helpful advice. :/

__________ Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:56 am __________

Ok.. I admit, I'm at loss at his behaviour.

I catched him today to check the injury (which looks good btw) and he screamed... the freakiest rabbit scream I've ever heard. It was as if he had several rabbit voices at once.
I still needed to check him though so I pulled him close untill he stopped. He was petrified and ''froze''.. I checked the wound and sat down with him in my lap. Still frozen, so to get some sort of reaction, snap him out of it, I poked him with a green leaf on his nose (It sounds bad to try but I don't want to leave him in that state of mood either). He came to live and started climbing all over me, sniffing and puffing on my clothes, hands, arms and even my neck. I petted him a bit (a lot) and he was fine with it. Then he froze again, wild staring big eyes. Petted him, tried to puff him a bit to wake him up (he had a free way out of my immediate precense) and did the leaf thing again. He didn't eat but came back to life, back to coming up to me and puffing on me with his nose again. Then he somehow found his way out from my lap, panicked/binkied (he seemed terrified though amd stomped several times) and ran around the cage with his eyes wide open, stopping in the hayrack.. which is in the end where I'm sitting. I lift him down on the floor, he starts puffing me again etc. at one point he went from sitting terrified to just hopping up to me ''unprovoked''..
He just goes from overly curious to completely terrified all of a sudden.. Before I left he finally took a taste of the leaf. I have not seen this before.. he's either the most friendly rabbit I've had, or the most fearful. Doesn't seem very food oriented.
I'm not quite sure what to do to win him over, but I guess I'll spend some cage time with a good book and see if he comes on his own. Thing is that first he sees me he freeze.. and he doesn't get out of that state of mind untill he's poked or snapped out of it, at least not when he's sitting a little bit away.. I waited for five minutes or so the first time he stopped in the far end of the cage, just sitting quietly.

:lol: my confidense is getting a lot of battles lately with these rabbits..

 

[ladysown]

i suspect your young buck will come around given time... particularly with the girls. So don't go thinking he's ruined for breeding yet. He should heal up just fine.

As to the odd behaviour....I'm not sure what to think about that. he could just be a stupid rabbit that takes a long time to process what is going on around him. I've had a horribly stupid rabbit before that wouldn't know he'd been fed if you didn't show he the feeder with food in it and needed a water bowl because a water bottle was TOTALLY beyond his understanding.

Some rabbits are just plain lacking in the brains department...and he might be one of them.

I'd give him some time and see if the two of you can come to an understanding.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

MamaSheepdog wrote:
Zab wrote:
What am I missing? Where is the third option that makes it bad to let him breed her before he's 8 months old?


I think the reason is that sometimes young male animals can be "put off" breeding if put with an aggressive female.


Oh guess what just happened?

My mellow, nice ''never do anythig rash'' doe went from lying with a nice lifted position to spin around and bite in what could be world record. She tore a large gash in his thigh. Then she ignored him completely.

Oops. :roll: Lol.

The mistake has happened and I'm asking advice to help it... ''he's ruined'' isn't very helpful advice. :/

I wouldn't worry too much about it "ruining" him. It happened so quickly that he probably had no idea what hit him. If she was allowed to beat him up for ten minutes it would be different.

He just goes from overly curious to completely terrified all of a sudden.

You mentioned that he wasn't handled much before. He probably gets "information overload" where he is trying to process too much at once, so just freezes. I hope you can get him over that, because it is not healthy for him.

I think your idea of spending time quietly reading in his cage is a good one. I would suggest doing it when you feed him. If you normally let him have something to munch on all day (hay, weeds, etc.), take that away on the day you plan to sit with him. Hopefully that way he will be hungry enough to eat with you in there. You want him to have the enjoyment of eating so in his little brain you are connected to the pleasurable filling of his belly.

 

[Zab]

Thanks..

Not sure I buy the ''stupid'' theory... if he was just slow to figure what happened he would still realize that the grass under his nose was food.. it's like a personality change.

One minute he's all cuddly, nosing around and acting like he's an old pet.. And the next second he's lying petrified or desperatly trying to run away..Not saying he's necessarily very smart for a rabbit, but it seems odd even for an unusually stupid creature.

I hope and think he'll come around though I'm just not sure how to act on it.

... the doe is more simple. She's nervous/skittish, but curious enough to come out to taste and check out the feed and leaves. With some time and careful handeling, I bet she'll be the first in line when I go in to feed them. Which is good, because that seem to have a lot of impact on the kits. (Kummins kits are super easy and rus around my feet at all times just like her, Kyndels come, but they're more careful and quick to scatter if I try to pet them. Like Kyndel. ven though they grew up with both does)

__________ Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:37 pm __________

MSD: that sounds reasonable. I've been thinking about giving him less pellet a few times a day so he notice why I go there (to fill up the feed) and realize it's a good thing. Rather than having free choice.

I guess it has been a big change for him - gone from his mother and siblings, car ride, met a new friend and she disappeared too (when I learnt they were 14 and 16 weeks and not 10-12) and then someone washing the injury, trimming nails... yeah, I can see an information overload happening.

 

[fuzzy9]

Could it be as simple as where you are touching him? I have a junior NZB buck, he's the friendliest, nosiest little rabbit ever! He begs for attention, but I sometimes find that if I touch him in areas he's not used to being touched, he gets all tensed up, and the eyes get all wide and scared looking. He loves his head pet, but if I touch the lower shoulder area, or around the underside of the neck and belly, he gets scared.

 

[Zab]

Good idea but I don't think so.. when he's nosy and curious I can pet him everywhere without anything happens. For a good while. Then when he freezes he doesn't seem to notice anything at all.. I can't see a pattern to a specific touch or move that makes him freeze.. :/<br /><br />__________ Thu Jul 18, 2013 5:23 am __________<br /><br />Spent one and a half hour in his cage. The first 30 minutes he sat perfectly still. Then he started stretching a bit and washing his feet. A few minutes later I reached out with a leaf - not poking him this time - and he took it angrily and stomped :lol: then seemed to realize it was sort of tasty. I retreated and some 20 minutes later I reached out with another leaf, which he took without getting upset. The third leaf he had to walk a bit to get.. after one hour and 20 minutes he hopped closer and started puffing my knees and arms, ignoring the greens on the ground in front of me. (he stood on them) Then quietl retreated back to his corner after a few minutes. I called it a day and left.
I didn't check his injury, but from what I saw when he washed his feet it looked okay and he didn't act sick.

The doe is much easier. She's still nervous when I move, but she allowed me to touch her when she munched on the greens in my other hand, and she raised against the bars of the cage when the other rabbits got feed. I think it helps that she sees them running towards the door when I come.

 

[TMTex]

Congrats on the progress. You have a lot of patience with the bunnies. That's pretty cool.