What to breed Frosty Jersey Wooly to?

[KKRabbitry]

So I ended up with a Frosty Jersey Wooly :?
Which of course is not showable in Jersey Woolies. But I am still thinking of keeping her around as a brood doe, since I am really short on JW does right now. Plus she is actually really typey and has a nice coat developing on her.
The question is I don't what color would be best to breed her to, to try and get showable babies.
Her mom was a sable point, and her dad was a Siamese sable.
(The dad had agouti and shaded crossed in his pedigree......I think that is how we ended up with a funky color)
Do I breed her to an agouti, since she is technically an agouti, or shaded since she carries mostly shaded?
My options are chestnut, opal, pointed white, REW (carries shaded), or sable marten?
What do y'all think?

 

[skysthelimit]

Neither Sable Point or Siamese Sables are agouti based, wondering how a Frosty came from those, sire was probably a shagouti and not a true Siamese Sable.
I would avoid the agoutis for now, if you don't want more frostys. The REW is a good choice, if you know it's not an agouti underneath. Next would be the shadeds, and only the agouti last, if you have some time to spare.

 

[Dood]

One of the parents must have been agouti to get a frosty.

You really need to know what the REW and pointed white (AKA himilayan) are before breeding to her as you could get more shaded un-showable colours.

The REW cannot carry shaded, it is genetically impossible, and I am curious why you think he might.

I wouldn't ad the tan gene from the sable marten.

I actually would breed to the chestnut or opal unless they carry non-extension and have fathered fawns, torts, or siamese sables.

 

[skysthelimit]

All of the self based and tan based shaded colors are acceptable in JW.
That's why I advise the REW, unless it's an agouti, you are going to get a self based animal, with chin, which is what you want for Jersey Woolies, to work well with the martens.
If that pointed white is an agouti, you can't use it with anything else you have anyway. If it's a self, then at some point you should get a self based kit from them, chldchl, to breed to your Martens.
Chin and tan will get you Silver Marten. If you want showable colors, mixing a chin based Frosty with Chestnut is not a good combo.

 

[KKRabbitry]

Skysthelimit, I'm wondering how I got a frosty also! Both parents are definitely Sable point and Siamese sable.
How would you tell what a "shagouti" looks like? My shaded buck looks like a classic Siamese sable to me. He has been shown and the judges have never mentioned anything odd about his color.
Like I mentioned someone crossed chinchilla and shaded back in his pedigree, and that resulted in orange. So what I'm guessing those genes came in during this cross and that's how we got frosty.

Very seriously considering selling both the frosty and the Siamese sable buck just to prevent that from happening again.
But I'm also tempted to just try one litter from her and see what happens. I really like the little doe, and the buck........but I don't want to get a lot of odd colors in my herd that might pop up later.

Dood, my REW buck's pedigree is all shadeds, (smoke pearl, samese sable, tort, sable point), REW, and one chocolate silver martin in there.
He can still carry tort and sable point even if he can't carry shaded, right? (Since tort and sable point are not technically considered shaded? Tell me if I'm wrong?) So he must hide either tort, sable point, self, or tan pattern?

If I do breed the doe I think it will be to the REW, or my opal buck.

Thanks for all your help helping me muddle through this one! Got to love rabbit genetics, even if I don't always understand it.
There is always more to learn!

 

[Dood]

He can still carry tort and sable point even if he can't carry shaded, right?

the gene that turns blacks to torts and sables to sable points is the non-extension gene. If you believe he is one or a carrier then breeding him to your frosty will likely get you more frostys.

How would you tell what a "shagouti" looks like?

in regular furred and rex breeds it is easier since the undercoat is not 2+ inches long but try looking at the tail, if it is lighter on the bottom and darker on the top then the agouti gene is likely at play. It should be easier to see the difference in kits and i would try and sort them before they get too fuzzy.

You should double check this doe as well. She might be a very light sable point or a chocolate or blue point (i think its called smoke pearl in angora circles) and not a frosty at all.

 

[skysthelimit]

That's exactly what I was thinking Dood, not a Frosty at all.


You can't carry agouti, so if it's in the ped but the parents are not agouti, then no offspring can be agouti.

 

[siddsaysgimmie]

Totally looks blue point... and cute. REW or maybe the PW would likely be your best bets.

 

[Cspr]

Yeah, I'd say it's a smoke pearl point. Maybe a sable point.

Don't know about JW color crossing rules, but if crossed with pointed white you could get pointed white, extended pointed white, siamese sables/smoke pearls, or sable point/smoke pearl point. With REW, you could get REW or (extended) pointed white, siamese sable/smoke pearls, or sable point/smoke pearl point. With sable marten, you should get seal marten, sable marten, and either pointed white or REW. It all depends on what exactly the bucks carry, of course. You probably know most of this but I'm anal and had to list it anyway.

 

[KKRabbitry]

Well guys, I think your right. She must actually be some kind blue/smoke pearl point, something along those lines.
I just can't wrap my head around how I got a frosty from a sable point + Siamese sable cross.
I was looking her over very carefully yesterday, and I think she is also martenized on top of everything else. She has that faint white line on the inside of her ear. Looks very suspicious.
So I'm thinking maybe she is a martenized smoke or blue point?
I'm going to go ahead and breed her to my REW, or Sable marten buck and see what happens.

Meanwhile my Siamese sable buck is going to find a new home, since I am 95% sure that color came from his background.
Thanks for all the help!

 

[Dood]

One of the parents must be a marten or otter to have a such a kit, it cannot hide in a sable point or siamese sable.