What do i have here?

[Disney]

I have 2 litters here that i need help with :x

First litter

I bred a broken opal vm doe to a black tort vm buck to bring out her E genes.
Still trying to figure out what these kits are.

The buck
aaB_C_D_ee Vv

The doe
AaB_CcddE_ Enen Vv

2 are white, probably blue eyed white unless the buck carries a "c"
1 white has a dark eye patch, not sure what the color is
And the 2 solid ones don't have a white belly.

__________ Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:42 am __________

Second litter..

Same buck, black tort vm
And a bew doe, she is the dam of the opal doe

Buck is
aaB_C_D_ee Vv

She is
AaB_CCdd__ vv

The litter
1 bew
2 dark vm, one has a white belly and the other has a dark belly, so chestnut vm and black self vm?
2 mystery vm, both have a white belly, but they are too light for opal.. maybe fawn?

She produced a blue, opal, gold tipped blue steel in her previous litter from a rew buck.

I always thought she was a steel/harlequin underneath the bew coat, her mom was a harlequin vm and her dad was a blue vm (Ee) they always produced harlequin kits, never had any self or tort.

Looking at this litter, she is not a harlequin. What about steel?
How does the steel gene work combined with the non-extension gene "ESe"?
What does a "A ESe" and "a Ese" kit look like?

 

[Dood]

Steel only works with agouti, by extending the dark pigments along the hair shaft, so a self rabbit can hide a steel. It is dominant so it would make a self rabbit with a steel and a non-extension (aa & ES e) look black.

First pic - I think the dark one is black and at first the orange kit looked like fawn (A_ ee) but you say there is no white belly, so perhaps a tort of some kind.

Second pic - I think the kits are opal and don't think they are too light to be so.
Here are some pics of another members opal - otter-from-a-castor-t13495.html

 

[Bad Habit]

Hahah, I love that buck, he looks like such a jerk.

 

[skysthelimit]

you'll need a few days to see if you get any tan around, not to light for opal, but it almost looks like a lilac agouti.

 

[Disney]

I doubt the 2 lighter kits in the second litter are opal, because i had opals before from this doe and they were much darker.
I have never seen blueish kits this light, they look more smoke pearl or lilac to me which they cannot be. :x

This is her previous litter, they don't look the same to me.

1 opal vm
1 broken opal vm (which is the momma doe in the first picture)
1 broken blue vm
1 blue vm
1 gold tipped blue steel

So the bew doe is either "EE" or "ESE"?
What about her harlequin vm mother? What gene has she passed on to her? Most likely not the ej and neither the "e"
And what does a "ESej" actually look like? Maybe you get why i hate this gene so much :? :lol:

So there is no guarantee to know if the selfs in these litters are steel or steel free selfs unless i breed them to a agouti?

I want to create a line of self vienna marked out of these doe's, so i was planning to keep the self kits out of them but what if they're secretly steel and i find out after 3 years of working with them, not knowing that i unpurposely have steel rabbits?
I's impossible to get rid of the steel gene unless you breed them with a agouti and look if the kits come out as steel or regular agouti but i don't have the time or space to do an investigation.

 

[Dood]

her mom was a harlequin vm and her dad was a blue vm (Ee) they always produced harlequin kits, never had any self or tort.

We thought my sisters buns had 2 japanese harlequin genes since her magpie buck and Tri- colour doe have had 17 tri-color or harlequin kits BUT in the last litter there were 2 torts.

Genetic statistics doesn't always play nice!<br /><br />__________ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:52 am __________<br /><br />Well maybe they are lilac but it is odd you have no history of chocolate kits . Test breeding will tell.

 

[Disney]

Hahah, I love that buck, he looks like such a jerk.

He is!!! He jumped over the colony fence 2 days ago and fought with the neutered buck who lives in the colony.
The neutered buck who is a bew, was covered in red and had a small hole on his back that i can't seem to locate now.

The black tort vm (Jiro) has a scar on his cheek, above his eye and a wound around his genitalea.
There is puss coming out of his.. poor thing had difficulty with peeing yesterday, he held it for a whole day and everything came out splashing. :|

These bucks fought last year too, thats when Jiro lost half of his underlip.. got ripped off

you'll need a few days to see if you get any tan around, not to light for opal, but it almost looks like a lilac agouti.

I was thinking of lilac too but that sounds very very unlikely to me.
If it's true.. then i'm going to cry of happiness.
I LOVE the chocolate and lilac color, so much that i traveled down to south holland to get a pair of choc and lilac netherland dwarfs.
I'm going to start a line of choc and lilac vienna marked rabbits with satin fur and another line of choc and lilac based lutino's with satin fur.

 

[Dood]

As long as you breed selfs it doesn't matter if there is a steel gene, it will be hidden. Unless you want torts?

'aa & ES ej' would look like a self and on an agouti 'A_ & ES ej' it would be steel and likely have some brindling or banding somewhere, the 'ej' gene has this effect on 'E' as well.

__________ Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:03 am __________

Ooohhh!

choc and lilac based lutino's

Champagne (ie chocolate Lutino) is one of my favorite colours in mice.

Please let us know how it goes!!

 

[Disney]

her mom was a harlequin vm and her dad was a blue vm (Ee) they always produced harlequin kits, never had any self or tort.

We thought my sisters buns had 2 japanese harlequin genes since her magpie buck and Tri- colour doe have had 17 tri-color or harlequin kits BUT in the last litter there were 2 torts.

Genetic statistics doesn't always play nice!

__________ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:52 am __________

Well maybe they are lilac but it is odd you have no history of chocolate kits . Test breeding will tell.

Wow that's a surprise..
Her parents have had multiple litters.. 5 i think and most came out as bew or harlequin.

Maybe the blue vm back was steel? He had scattered white hairs.. but why didnt they produce a steel kit since the doe is agouti?
Here he is, the dad of my bew doe, i want my kits to have vienna markings like him but my bew doe always produces kits with minimal markings

And the mom

Their last litter together

__________ Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:18 am __________

As long as you breed selfs it doesn't matter if there is a steel gene, it will be hidden. Unless you want torts?

'aa & ES ej' would look like a self and on an agouti 'A_ & ES ej' it would be steel and likely have some brindling or banding somewhere, the 'ej' gene has this effect on 'E' as well.

I completely want to get rid of the steel gene, i really despise it. It has no worthy value at all.
And i don't want to work with a line of rabbits for years not knowing of they are steel or not..

Champagne (ie chocolate Lutino) is one of my favorite colours in mice.

Please let us know how it goes!!

And one of my favorite colors in rabbits!!
I have a lutino lilac doe who genetically is black, she carries satin, rex and chocolate.
And she had champagne and champagne otter siblings

She is going to bred with a dwarf lilac buck to bring out her chocolate genes.
The kits will be lutino carriers and hopefuly satin.
Then i'm going to breed her with a different back who is either satin or carries satin fur.
And then i'm going to cross kits out of both litters who carry lutino and satin, to get satin lutino in chocolate. :mrgreen:

This is Videl, the lutino.. i have a hard time making photos of her because she keeps her eyes closed and sits there like a duck ready to get taken by a hawk.

And her future date, my beautiful lilac buck Luca opcorn:

There is more on my page
http://www.viennakonijnen.weebly.com

 

[Bad Habit]

Hahah, I love that buck, he looks like such a jerk.

He is!!! He jumped over the colony fence 2 days ago and fought with the neutered buck who lives in the colony.
The neutered buck who is a bew, was covered in red and had a small hole on his back that i can't seem to locate now.

Awww, bad boy! You should send him to me

 

[skysthelimit]

As much as I love to look at steel buns, that is the one gene that just smacks genetics upside the head. I am still waiting to get a steel in my Standard Rex, it's not an impossibility...what a monkey wrench!

 

[Disney]

Okay i figured the first litter out, well almost completely.

The creme colored kit is a blue tort, didn't expect mom to carry "e" but that's good news for me.

Now if you look at this litter, you'll think that the 3 whites are all bew.. im sorry but that's not the case.
Just one 1 bew.
The other is completely white with 1 black eye band, which makes him a half hotot. How? Simple, vienna + broken results often in hotot or charlie kits with blue eyes.
And the last is white with brown eye bands and tiny tiny brown dot on it's back. Either fawn or blue tort looking like a hotot and probably blue eyed.

See the brown eyes and dot? Fawn or blue tort?

The 2 mystery kits of the second litter are developing nicely.
Will take their pictures now and post them later.

http://www.viennakonijnen.weebly.com


__________ Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:40 pm __________


The second litter..

I think the mystery kits are lynx
Does anyone recognise them as lynx?