Torts and stuff from 2 Agoutis, what have I got there?

[Preitler]

Hi,

I thought my litters would get pretty boring, had a black buck and a black doe (Chantal), and her daughter, a broken agouti doe(Ruth). Only got black and agouti kits.
Chantal died last year, now it's 5yo Ruth (broken) and her 1yo daughter, a solid agouti. And I got a new agouti buck with unknown heritage, Hansi.

The doe, and Hansi:




And there's the first litter of those two: 4 agouti, 2 black, 2 what I think are black torts?, one orang-y kit with no dark spots.



So, is this tort, or dilute or whatever it is recessive, and both my does carry it (sire of the broken doe was a pale orange broken with maybe some darker shadings like a tort), and the previous, black buck, sire of the young doe, didn't? And the new buck does carry it, and that's why I got this surprises? Both carry black, right?



I hope the checkered doe did take, she's on day 31 and does look somewhat pregnant, but no nesting so far. Would be nice to get a broken orange doe to keep.

 

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

Ok so, I work with these genes a lot. Looks to me like an Orange/Fawn kit (second one) and the other one I’m not as sure. To me it looks like either a Fox/Tort Otter or a Self Tortoise. Probably self tortoise because of the solid genes. You’re rabbits simply have recessive wide band genes, it’s the most recessive of the genes that affect agouti banding and essentially adds a bunch of red/orange pigmentation. The regular orange one would most likely be agouti without the wide band and the Self Tortoise would be Black.

(Edit: Got a touch mixed up on my gene names. Meant non-extension not wideband.)

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hi,

I thought my litters would get pretty boring, had a black buck and a black doe (Chantal), and her daughter, a broken agouti doe(Ruth). Only got black and agouti kits.
Chantal died last year, now it's 5yo Ruth (broken) and her 1yo daughter, a solid agouti. And I got a new agouti buck with unknown heritage, Hansi.

The doe, and Hansi:

View attachment 40571
View attachment 40570

And there's the first litter of those two: 4 agouti, 2 black, 2 what I think are black torts?, one orang-y kit with no dark spots.

View attachment 40569

So, is this tort, or dilute or whatever it is recessive, and both my does carry it (sire of the broken doe was a pale orange broken with maybe some darker shadings like a tort), and the previous, black buck, sire of the young doe, didn't? And the new buck does carry it, and that's why I got this surprises? Both carry black, right?

View attachment 40572View attachment 40573

I hope the checkered doe did take, she's on day 31 and does look somewhat pregnant, but no nesting so far. Would be nice to get a broken orange doe to keep.

Yes, the orange ones with black shading are torts. They are basically self black <aaB_> rabbits (like their black sibling) but they have two copies of the non-extension gene <ee> that prevent the black pigment that would normally extend up the length of the hairshaft, allowing to show through the orange that self black normally covers up. On a tort, the tips of the shorter fur on ears, nose, feet, belly/sides normally still shows the black coloration. Thus, a tort is always a self.
Tort = <aaB_C_D_ee>.

The orange one is an agouti <A_> with the non-extension genes <ee> again preventing the expression of black banding, leaving only the orange band; sometimes oranges will have dark "smut" but it's not in the pattern you see on the torts. You can tell it's an agouti because it still has the paler inner ears, undertail, belly, and jaw markings of an agouti.
Orange = <A_B_C_D_ee>.


A self rabbit has no pale agouti belly or light inner ears; thus you see on your tort kits - selfs - that the inner ears, belly and undertail are dark rather than light.


In a nutshell:
- chestnut agouti + non-extension = orange
- self + non-extension = tort

Wideband <w> is on a different locus and is not one of the main color or pattern genes. Two recessive alleles <ww> cause the middle orange band to widen/extend upward farther than usual. Thus it has no effect on a self black (the black already covers all of the orange) and its effect on an orange is often just to nudge any remaining dark "smut" off the end of the hair. An agouti rabbit with recessive wideband <ww> (that does not have the non-extension <ee> to make it an orange) is just an agouti with a wider-than-normal middle ring. Sometimes they look a little brighter/lighter than a normal agouti, but they still have agouti banding in the fur, while orange does not. Your Hansi and Ruth may, or may not, carry the wideband gene; it's not necessary for oranges, just makes them look nicer and brighter, while in chestnut agouti it messes things up so is not generally bred for.

Since chestnut agouti comes from dominant alleles, and selfs and non-extension colors are from recessive alleles, it means that you know that the sire and dam of these bunnies each have both <A> and <a> and <E> and <e>. Since they both look like chestnut agoutis, and they produced both selfs and torts, you know both of their genotypes are <AaB_C_D_Ee>.
A = agouti
a = self
B = black
C = full color
D = Dense (non-dilute)
E = full extension
e = non-extension
The blanks _ mean that there is no evidence for what alleles they may carry hidden at that locus.

The thing about chestnut agouti is that it has all of the most dominant alleles at each locus (excepting the E locus, but we don't need to go into that here), so unless you have a pedigree, do test breeding, or have litters like this you never know what might be hiding behind those dominant alleles.

Your litter photo is great! It shows a chestnut agouti, a non-extension chestnut agouti (aka orange), a self black, and a non-extension self black (aka tort).

 

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

Yes, the orange ones with black shading are torts. They are basically self black <aaB_> rabbits (like their black sibling) but they have two copies of the non-extension gene <ee> that prevent the black pigment that would normally extend up the length of the hairshaft, allowing to show through the orange that self black normally covers up. On a tort, the tips of the shorter fur on ears, nose, feet, belly/sides normally still shows the black coloration. Thus, a tort is always a self.
Tort = <aaB_C_D_ee>.

The orange one is an agouti <A_> with the non-extension genes <ee> again preventing the expression of black banding, leaving only the orange band; sometimes oranges will have dark "smut" but it's not in the pattern you see on the torts. You can tell it's an agouti because it still has the paler inner ears, undertail, belly, and jaw markings of an agouti.
Orange = <A_B_C_D_ee>.
View attachment 41299View attachment 41300

A self rabbit has no pale agouti belly or light inner ears; thus you see on your tort kits - selfs - that the inner ears, belly and undertail are dark rather than light.
View attachment 41302View attachment 41301

In a nutshell:
- chestnut agouti + non-extension = orange
- self + non-extension = tort

Wideband <w> is on a different locus and is not one of the main color or pattern genes. Two recessive alleles <ww> cause the middle orange band to widen/extend upward farther than usual. Thus it has no effect on a self black (the black already covers all of the orange) and its effect on an orange is often just to nudge any remaining dark "smut" off the end of the hair. An agouti rabbit with recessive wideband <ww> (that does not have the non-extension <ee> to make it an orange) is just an agouti with a wider-than-normal middle ring. Sometimes they look a little brighter/lighter than a normal agouti, but they still have agouti banding in the fur, while orange does not. Your Hansi and Ruth may, or may not, carry the wideband gene; it's not necessary for oranges, just makes them look nicer and brighter, while in chestnut agouti it messes things up so is not generally bred for.

Since chestnut agouti comes from dominant alleles, and selfs and non-extension colors are from recessive alleles, it means that you know that the sire and dam of these bunnies each have both <A> and <a> and <E> and <e>. Since they both look like chestnut agoutis, and they produced both selfs and torts, you know both of their genotypes are <AaB_C_D_Ee>.
A = agouti
a = self
B = black
C = full color
D = Dense (non-dilute)
E = full extension
e = non-extension
The blanks _ mean that there is no evidence for what alleles they may carry hidden at that locus.

The thing about chestnut agouti is that it has all of the most dominant alleles at each locus (excepting the E locus, but we don't need to go into that here), so unless you have a pedigree, do test breeding, or have litters like this you never know what might be hiding behind those dominant alleles.

Your litter photo is great! It shows a chestnut agouti, a non-extension chestnut agouti (aka orange), a self black, and a non-extension self black (aka tort).

Oh oops sorry I was a little confused with my genes. I’m a bit knew to the actual genetics part and got my names mixed up. Although I did mean non-extension, the words just kinda go jumbled in my brain.

 

[Preitler]

Lets see if I got it
If I want oranges and agoutis in the future with this buck I would need to keep an orange doe, with some luck it could carry black and I could get some torts and even blacks thrown in too.

If I keep a tort, I would get blacks, agoutis, oranges and torts in about the same numbers, right?

No way to tell if one of the agoutis or blacks carries non-extension without test breeding, and I could end up with solid blacks and agoutis.

Would love to get a broken tort from my other doe, but the clock is ticking there, next season she'll be 6.

 

[Lindsay Krawsczyn]

So, if you kept an orange kit you would get pretty consistent litter with oranges. Seen as it would be genetically agouti unless you where breeding to an orange buck you would get the occasional agouti, she could also be carrying self especially if the father is a self color which would give you the occasional self black or tort.

If you kept a tort kit you would mostly get torts and blacks, seen as it’s genetically a self without the non-extension. You could get oranges and agoutis though if bred to an agouti, but it’s less likely than the orange giving torts and selfs along with agoutis and oranges.

Also, do keep in mind that non-extension and harlequin/tricolor are separate genes. So a broken tort would mostly look like a broken orange minus some grey/black in the spots the tort kits you have now have it. Just in case you were thinking of a tricolor. And if you happened to breed a orange or tort to a harlequin/tricolor you would always get harlequins/tricolors out of the orange and depending on whether or not the harlequin has recessive self or maybe even otter you would also get harlequins/tricolors with a small chance of getting torts.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Lets see if I got it
If I want oranges and agoutis in the future with this buck I would need to keep an orange doe, with some luck it could carry black and I could get some torts and even blacks thrown in too.

If I keep a tort, I would get blacks, agoutis, oranges and torts in about the same numbers, right?

No way to tell if one of the agoutis or blacks carries non-extension without test breeding, and I could end up with solid blacks and agoutis.

Would love to get a broken tort from my other doe, but the clock is ticking there, next season she'll be 6.

Hansi is <AaB_C_D_Ee>, agouti carrying self and non-extension.
An orange doe (out of him and your solid agouti doe) would be <A_B_C_D_ee>.
So if you breed her back to him, you could get:
agouti <A_B_C_D_Ee>
orange <A_B_C_D_ee>
self black <aaB_C_D_E_> is possible if the doe is <Aa> rather than <AA>
tort <aaB_C_D_ee> is possible if the doe is <Aa> rather than <AA>

A tort doe out of the same pair would be <aaB_C_D_ee>,
so if you bred her back to Hansi <AaB_C_D_Ee>, you could get:
agouti <A_B_C_D_Ee>
orange <A_B_C_D_ee>
self black <aaB_C_D_E_>
tort <aaB_C_D_ee>

You can see that the varieties you get may be about the same whether you kept the orange or the tort, since there's a 50/50 chance the kits will get one of Hansi's dominant alleles. But the possibility of selfs/torts from the orange depends on the orange doe's second <A> allele, which as you correctly note you can't tell without a test breeding.

If the orange doe is <AA> she won't produce any selfs at all (but statistically, half of her kits will carry <a> from Hansi). If she is <Aa>, you can get all four colors, but the proportion of torts to oranges will be slightly different from the tort. That's because there's a 50/50 chance for non-extension colors from both does, but there will be a 50% chance of selfs (torts) from the tort, but only a 25% chance of selfs from the orange doe. So, statistically anyway, while you could get all of the varieties from either doe, you'd expect a few more torts from a tort doe.