The facts about giving does calcium and common mistakes!

[cowgirl9768]

Hey everyone,
As some of you know I have been going to college to study Veterinary medicine for the last two years. I have completed animal anatomy and physiology one and two, pharmacology, exotic animal studies, animal med and surgery, clinical pathology, parasitology, lab technology, radiology, nutrition, and more.

Something that has been a topic that comes up over and over is the improper supplementing of calcium in breeding female animals. Most commonly seen in rabbits, dogs, and cattle. This can lead to a condition often called "milk fever" in cattle.

To understand how to properly supplement calcium one must understand how calcium is controlled in the body. For sake of time and understanding I will greatly simplify this process for you.

Calcium is always present in the body. Depending on the level of calcium the blood animals do one of two things. If calcium in the blood is higher then the demand the body will start one process. Calcium will be drawn from the blood and laid down into bone resulting in a reduction of calcium avaliblity in the blood. Reversely if blood calcium level is low the body will change to a process of pulling calcium from the rest of the body into the blood for use in muscle contraction and other calcium requiring activities. These two processes are the body's means of maintaining homeostasis. It takes multiple days to get the body to switch from one process to the other. During birth an animal should be in the "pulling process". All excess calcium needs to be pulled into the blood so it is available for muscle contraction and lactation. If the body is in the process of laying down calcium and pulling it out of the blood at this time the effect can be bad.

So how does this apply. Well when you know a doe will soon be kindling it is often thought to be a good idea give her more calcium (calf manna, tums, etc) around a week before birth. This is one of the worse thing you can do. She will acquire a large amount of calcium in her blood and her body will start the process of pulling the new influx of calcium out of the blood stream and into the bones making it less available then if calcium was never supplemented in the first place. This is not to say that a doe will not need more calcium during pregnancy and kindling but it should not be given at this time. The ideal is to give an animal calcium during the middle 2/4 of pregnancy. This will allow the doe to lay down more calcium in her body and in her kits' body. Then in the last 1/4 of pregnancy all calcium supplements should be withdrawn! This will allow the animal to change its internal processes from pulling calcium out of the blood to pulling calcium in. If problems arise during labor it is then okay to supplement calcium again since it takes a few days to change processes in the body. Giving calcium during birth will not be enough to cause the body to draw calcium out of the blood again. The after kindling calcium can gradually be increased to meet the increase demand of calcium for milk production. But you need to be careful not to increase over the rising demand or you will cause your doe to pull calcium out of the blood again. Kinda a complicated cycle!


So how do I apply this to my rabbits?
After about a week after breeding I start to add in calcium supplements (I use calf mana). I continue to do so until a week before kindling. At this point I take all calcium supplements away. I watch my doe around kindling to see if she has trouble (never have had trouble). If she did seem to be having trouble I'd offer her some calcium. After kindling I slowly ad in calcium. I never feed more then half a tbs a day.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Great info, Cowgirl! Thank you.

I add crushed oyster shell to my pellets. The type I get at TSC comes in a processed form that looks like little pebbles, so they can choose to eat it or not.

 

[akane]

I don't supplement mine with calcium specifically. With both humans and animals I think it is safest to feed toward a balanced diet even when supplementing. I only ever suggest a human start taking a multivitamin even when I have a specific deficiency in mind. The calcium issues are an example of often unknown problems that could occur giving higher doses of just one thing. The exception would be very short term use for a sudden problem like calcium during kindling.

 

[Zass]

I was under the impression that alfalfa is already fairly high in calcium, and that pellet fed rabbits didn't really need more of it.
My lines never seem to have difficult labors, and all have strong teeth and bones.
(I get a very good look at processing time!)

How would you know if a rabbit needed more calcium than they were already getting?

hmmm...The type of hay fed would certainly be a factor. For example alfalfa has a lot more calcium than timothy.

http://www.guinealynx.info/hay_calcium.html

I could see where some natural fed and homemade diets might need the boost, especially if they aren't relying on high calcium hay to start with. Pet rabbits on a HRS style timothy and veggies diet could probably use the boost as well.

Your information on the right time to supplement is really useful!

 

[akane]

Those numbers do not follow what I was given for average Iowa hay and they do not match what the clover hay I get is. Probably because the guy pours trace minerals and natural fertilizer into his fields which are all certified organic now. There's probably too much variation between cuts and between cuts from different areas of the country to rely on a chart like that. If you want to really get in to the details of the diet you should have the hay you are using tested at least from one year to the next if not per cut. Sellers of really good hay, especially if it is a company or a person that sends hay out to a wide area of customers, may already be testing their hay so it may simply take asking for those numbers.

 

[Dood]

Cowgirl, I must disagree with your interpretation of when to supplement calcium to rabbits.

As Zass stated the diet of rabbits is already very high in calcium and the problem during pre and post parturition is not the lack of calcium in the females skeleton but that the process of "pulling" calcium out of the bones is too slow and cannot meet the current needs of the female and her offspring and leads to hypocalcemia of the blood.

Veterinary treatment of this disorder is an IV drip of calcium gluconate and the poor mans solution is easily digestible calcium product such as Tums. Calcium can enter the blood via the digestive tract and not just from de-mineralizing bones (although studies in laying hens show they use bone calcium instead of dietary in shell formation) so immediate dosing of females showing signs of hypocalcemia is recommended IMHO.

PS could you please elaborate or explain why or how this is "bad"

If the body is in the process of laying down calcium and pulling it out of the blood at this time the effect can be bad.

 

[Zass]

Those numbers do not follow what I was given for average Iowa hay and they do not match what the clover hay I get is. Probably because the guy pours trace minerals and natural fertilizer into his fields which are all certified organic now. There's probably too much variation between cuts and between cuts from different areas of the country to rely on a chart like that. If you want to really get in to the details of the diet you should have the hay you are using tested at least from one year to the next if not per cut. Sellers of really good hay, especially if it is a company or a person that sends hay out to a wide area of customers, may already be testing their hay so it may simply take asking for those numbers.

I was just looking for averages or a generalization. I didn't realize the crops were...fortified? I honestly couldn't tell you what % of that calcium would be available to the body either. I have read that not all of the calcium in alfalfa is actually available to the livestock consuming it. Which lets me know that I have absolutely no clue as to how much of the calcium present in other hays is readily taken up by an animals body.
I was just using it as a comparison as to which hays had more and which ones had less.

On the upside, that guy's products sound great! Organic hays from mineral rich fields? Yes please! Are they for sale anywhere?

 

[cowgirl9768]

I was under the impression that alfalfa is already fairly high in calcium, and that pellet fed rabbits didn't really need more of it.

This is a huge topic in the nutrition class I took. A lot of different opinions. But.... A few studies have show that if you are feeding a pelleted diet to rabbits over 9 months it should not be alfalfa based. The daily minimum calcium requirement for a 7 lb rabbit is 510 milligrams. Yes, that is the daily minimum amount; producing animals, animals outside, exercising animals, etc can have slightly more. Yet most commercial (alfalfa based) pellets contain up to 5 times that amount. An ideal pelleted food should be absolutely no more then 1% calcium (that is still on the high end) and at least 22%-25% crude protein. If you look at common feeds they are often over 1% (and even point %s can be huge!). Purina show chow - 1.2%, Manna Pro select - 1.25% and so on. High calcium diets have to be filtered through the rabbit's urinary tract and cause the formation of calculi. This can form into pellets and crystals in the urinary tract causing "sludgy pee", blocks, etc. This can eventually lead to a ruptured bladder or kidney failure .. Rabbits really get most the calcium the need from Timothy/grass hay. Alfalfa is way too high in calcium to be the roughage source in an adult rabbit's diet. I found a feed that has less then 1% calcium and is Timothy based. I feed grass hay to anything over 6 months. Only exception being when I supplement a very small amount of calcium in my breeding does as explained above. This supplementation if over such a short time and in such a small amount it won't cause the above stated issue.

 

[Zass]

I was under the impression that alfalfa is already fairly high in calcium, and that pellet fed rabbits didn't really need more of it.

This is a huge topic in the nutrition class I took. A lot of different opinions. But.... A few studies have show that if you are feeding a pelleted diet to rabbits over 9 months it should not be alfalfa based. The daily minimum calcium requirement for a 7 lb rabbit is 510 milligrams. Yes, that is the daily minimum amount; producing animals, animals outside, exercising animals, etc can have slightly more. Yet most commercial (alfalfa based) pellets contain up to 5 times that amount. An ideal pelleted food should be absolutely no more then 1% calcium (that is still on the high end) and at least 22%-25% crude protein. If you look at common feeds they are often over 1% (and even point %s can be huge!). Purina show chow - 1.2%, Manna Pro select - 1.25% and so on. High calcium diets have to be filtered through the rabbit's urinary tract and cause the formation of calculi. This can form into pellets and crystals in the urinary tract causing "sludgy pee", blocks, etc. This can eventually lead to a ruptured bladder or kidney failure .. Rabbits really get most the calcium the need from Timothy/grass hay. Alfalfa is way too high in calcium to be the roughage source in an adult rabbit's diet. I found a feed that has less then 1% calcium and is Timothy based. I feed grass hay to anything over 6 months. Only exception being when I supplement a very small amount of calcium in my breeding does as explained above. This supplementation if over such a short time and in such a small amount it won't cause the above stated issue.

and at least 22%-25% crude protein.

I'm feeding 16% protein to meat rabbits and getting decent litter sizes (7-12) and better grow out weights than some people on here who feed 18% ( 5 lbs at 9-10 weeks) I do a have a problem with them having more fat on their bodies than I like, and am careful to not feed pellets with animal fat or vegetable oils as an ingredient.
I supplement nursing does with about teaspoon/day of black oil sunflower seeds to enrich the fat content of the milk some if I'm worried that a large litter will take too much from a doe.
They get grass hay as roughage, pretty much available all the time, which would lower the overall calcium and protein in their diets since they fill up on a fair portion of that instead of just pellets.

How would one know if a rabbit wasn't getting enough protein?

 

[cowgirl9768]

How would you know if a rabbit needed more calcium than they were already getting?

This is hard... Often, in exotics (in the vet field rabbits are considered exotic), owners do not know until it is too late. Rabbits can get brittle bone syndrome, or die suddenly during of after kindling. Yet with how low a calcium requirement rabbits have I often worry more about give to much. If I suspect one of my rabbits has too much calcium I run a urinalysis in it. But this is a luxury I have. I can use the equipment and have the know how to do this for free. Some ways you can tell is simply to look at the pee in your bunny cages. If you come across a rabbit with particularly cloudy urine you may be feeding to much calcium. Urine becomes cloudy due to urinary crystals. But this can be misleading. Most animals can control the uptake of calcium in their digestive tract. When they need more calcium their blood PTH is released and stimulates the development of an active form of Vitamin D in the kidneys witch then goes to the intestine and increases absorption. When the body needs less calcium PTH production reduces thus reducing absorption. Some other things effect this as well. For some reason, still not readily researched, rabbits don't have much control of their calcium absorption. The average animal only filters approximately 2% of its dietary calcium through its blood and urinary tract. Rabbits filter a whopping 60% of their dietary calcium through their kidneys. So naturally rabbit urine is already much cloudier then other animals. Look at your rabbits, get used to normal so you can spot abnormal. Look for rabbits who continually drip urine, have urine burns around their genitals, and seem to strain when urinating. These are all signs you rabbit has far too much calcium crystallizing in its urinary tract. If not you are probably fine. It is much easier to give too much then to little with rabbits.

 

[Zass]

Alright! That seems easy enough to correct. I've been trying to reduce overall pellet consumption and work towards a better diet, since I have very limited feed options available here. You just gave me another reason to work harder towards that goal!

Some of my rabbits do have a tendency towards cloudy urine, and it's the kind of thing I'd rather catch and correct LONG before they had a urine drip, urine burns, or difficulty urinating.

Thankfully, I have yet to see those symptoms in my herd, and I'd rather make sure I never did!

 

[cowgirl9768]

The most prevalent issue with low CP in a rabbits diet is poor muscle formation. Again, in rabbits, it is very hard to tell these thing until there are very significant issues. But just like people calories tend to make fat and protein makes muscle. Much more complicated then that if you get into how each transfers to ATP/energy but you would have to take a whole corse in that. Really the best way to tell if you are feeding to high fat verses protein is to look at your buns. If you are feed enough food (not to much, not to little) but your rabbits have poor muscle density and a lot of fat you probably need to feed a pellet with higher protein concentrate. But that is easiest to tell in autopsy sadly.

-- Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:02 pm --

Honestly a good hay should really make up most of a rabbit's complete diet. Pellets, or oats, seeds, etc are just a little more to balance things out. But hay should be your primary source of everything.

 

[Zass]

I think what I just read was that lower protein feed could potentially lead to rabbits with less dense muscle mass and essentially lower the overall quality of rabbit meat. Many of us who raise rabbits do it for it's higher protein and lower fat and cholesterol qualities of the meat, so this is a very real concern.
Lower protein feed may also contribute to poor muscle formation, and if I'm inferring correctly, increase the chances of muscle related injuries in active rabbits?

Autopsy might be sad, but it is a standard part of raising rabbits for many different reasons, and most of us do it routinely when any animal is lost or culled.

 

[cowgirl9768]

Cowgirl, I must disagree with your interpretation of when to supplement calcium to rabbits.

As Zass stated the diet of rabbits is already very high in calcium and the problem during pre and post parturition is not the lack of calcium in the females skeleton but that the process of "pulling" calcium out of the bones is too slow and cannot meet the current needs of the female and her offspring and leads to hypocalcemia of the blood.

Veterinary treatment of this disorder is an IV drip of calcium gluconate and the poor mans solution is easily digestible calcium product such as Tums. Calcium can enter the blood via the digestive tract and not just from de-mineralizing bones (although studies in laying hens show they use bone calcium instead of dietary in shell formation) so immediate dosing of females showing signs of hypocalcemia is recommended IMHO.

PS could you please elaborate or explain why or how this is "bad"

If the body is in the process of laying down calcium and pulling it out of the blood at this time the effect can be bad.

What you are saying in no way contradicts what I am saying. It is not that I am saying the does primary calcium source should be from her bones but that if you give too much calcium it will send her into a process of laying down calcium in her bones. Witch is NOT bad except when the doe needs that calcium for other things. If you read my other post I talk very little about hormones. Well hormones stay in the blood for quite some time. The hormones produced that cause the laying down of bone pull calcium from the blood making it less available for muscle contractions and lactation. You don't want the body pulling calcium from the blood for the laying down of bone when muscle contractions and milk production are much more important at this time. Consult with any vet and they will most likely agree with what I am saying. As I stated before, if a rabbit is having troubles birthing, yes calcium is great right then.... Not a week before. Because the calcium will be used from her blood for contractions and lactation because she has the demand right then. But a week before birth her body will just take it as extra calcium and starts producing hormones to lay it down as bone. Those hormones will then draw calcium for the laying down of bone that we want it in the blood for contraction and lactation.

-- Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:25 pm --

I think what I just read was that lower protein feed could potentially lead to rabbits with less dense muscle mass and essentially lower the overall quality of rabbit meat. Many of us who raise rabbits do it for it's higher protein and lower fat and cholesterol qualities of the meat, so this is a very real concern.
Lower protein feed may also contribute to poor muscle formation, and if I'm inferring correctly, increase the chances of muscle related injuries in active rabbits?

Autopsy might be sad, but it is a standard part of raising rabbits for many different reasons, and most of us do it routinely when any animal is lost or culled.

Correct, and I agree... Though autopsy can be sad at first it is vital in both meet production and medical industries. I have performed autopsies on dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, and more for medical research at our college. It is vital.

 

[robeyw]

A few studies have show that if you are feeding a pelleted diet to rabbits over 9 months it should not be alfalfa based. The daily minimum calcium requirement for a 7 lb rabbit is 510 milligrams. Yes, that is the daily minimum amount; producing animals, animals outside, exercising animals, etc can have slightly more. Yet most commercial (alfalfa based) pellets contain up to 5 times that amount. An ideal pelleted food should be absolutely no more then 1% calcium (that is still on the high end) and at least 22%-25% crude protein.

Some alfalfa based formulas have added calcium, other where alfalfa is the first ingredient have much less. For example the first 2 ingredients in kmshayloft are alfalfa and orchard grass and the calcium is .41% to .54%. Are there other reasons for an adult rabbit, not pregnant or nursing, to avoid alfalfa?

 

[MnCanary]

Cowgirl19768, you said "An ideal pelleted food should be absolutely no more then 1% calcium (that is still on the high end) and at least 22%-25% crude protein.". Did you really mean that? I would guess that millions of rabbits are produced annually using 16-18% protein. I know almost nothing about rabbit nutrition, except to follow the commercial rabbit guidelines. I read everything I can get my hands on. I've never seen a protein recommendation with such high numbers. What am I missing here?

 

[MaggieJ]

Cowgirl19768, you said "An ideal pelleted food should be absolutely no more then 1% calcium (that is still on the high end) and at least 22%-25% crude protein.". Did you really mean that? I would guess that millions of rabbits are produced annually using 16-18% protein. I know almost nothing about rabbit nutrition, except to follow the commercial rabbit guidelines. I read everything I can get my hands on. I've never seen a protein recommendation with such high numbers. What am I missing here?

Zombie thread, MnCanary. Cowgirl's last visit here was in September 2015, so you won't likely get a reply from her. Too bad, because it's a good question. I think she may have meant 22-25 % crude fiber, not protein.

 

[MnCanary]

Zombie thread, MnCanary. Cowgirl's last visit here was in September 2015, so you won't likely get a reply from her. Too bad, because it's a good question. I think she may have meant 22-25 % crude fiber, not protein.

I see that now, thanks. Your conclusion, MaggieJ, is the only thing I could think of.