Tattoos, Pedigrees and Showing

[Susie570]

I was just reading a thread on tattooing. Now that I'm getting serious about raising some Mini Lops, I have some questions.

The one buck I currently have is pet quality. He doesn't have a pedigree and I never had any intention of showing him. However, he did produce some pretty colors in his oops litter. I want to have a line of harli/tri pet rabbits and a line of higher quality rabbits that can be shown (when I can get a nice buck).

I've already purchased a very nice show quality doe and I'm probably about to purchase a decent harli doe (not showable due to color).

Now, I don't plan for a breeding to my buck to produce a show quality rabbit... but what if it does? These things do happen. Also, even just pet quality rabbits sell better if you can tell the prospective owner "she's a pet quality rabbit, but she's tattooed and pedigreed" or at least "Her mother has grand champions in her background", etc.

You know, people do like to feel that they are getting something they can brag about a little bit, even if it's just pet quality.

So, my questions are these. Can I register my pet quality buck? Do I need to? Should I tattoo all of my litters? Can rabbits be shown if one of their parents doesn't have a 3 generation pedigree? Would I be able to make pedigrees for a litter if one parent does not have a pedigree?

Understand that I have no intention of trying to pull wool over anyone's eyes, just considering possible, legit things I can do to help sell my rabbits.

A nice tattoo clamp was listed in the other thread http://rabbittalk.com/post105645.html#p105645, does anyone have experience with it?

 

[DBA]

I wouldn't tattoo or fill out a pedigree on anything that isn't show quality. I know some people do, but I wouldn't.
The reasoning is, the pedigree shows the lineage, any possible show winners, and shows that it is a pure bred rabbit. People showing or getting into showing need this pedigree. People who buy high quality pedigreed stock, are usually doing so to eventually breed the animal.
By offering lower quality animals with pedigrees, that in turn will eventually be entering lower quality genetics into the breed. The point of only pedigreeing the best rabbits is to try to ensure that only the best will be used for breeding purposes.
I got burned by buying a pedigreed rabbit before I really knew anything at all about the standards. (Still don't know a whole lot). That rabbit would likely be the first off the table no matter which judge looked at it.
That is one of the reasons my stomache turns when I see people breed a couple of pedigreed rabbits, and as soon as a litter is born, they advertise they will have show quality, pedigreed rabbits for sale on XXXX date.
I have a litter of 4 mini lops right now, they are a month old and I still won't know for another month or two if any of them are show quality.
I guess, to sum it up, by pedigreeing all of the rabbits born, it dumbs down the breed.

 

[caroline]

I keep records on everything that I breed. To me that's what a pedigree is. It's a record of the ancestors of the animal. It tells you things like color, weight, etc. For me it is a learning tool, it helps me to look back and see how color is derived and where certain traits come from. I also tattoo and photograph and weigh everything at weaning, unless I harvest it, in which case I don't bother. Then I enter all the information into globalpedigree.com
I have a lot of rabbits and it's the easiest way to be sure who is who. My tattoo system is
# for the year the kit was born
First letter of the sire's name
First letter of the dam's name
odd # for bucks
even# for does
So Re-Mark-Able's and Tansy's litter of 5 does and 3 bucks were just tattooed:
5RT0, 5RT1, 5RT2, 5RT3, 5RT4, 5RT5, 5RT6, 5RT8

So at any one time I don't have more than one buck or one doe with the same first letter for their name and I don't name my rabbits until they are parents, until then they are just IDed by their unique tattoo.

 

[Susie570]

I wouldn't tattoo or fill out a pedigree on anything that isn't show quality. I know some people do, but I wouldn't.
The reasoning is, the pedigree shows the lineage, any possible show winners, and shows that it is a pure bred rabbit. People showing or getting into showing need this pedigree. People who buy high quality pedigreed stock, are usually doing so to eventually breed the animal.
By offering lower quality animals with pedigrees, that in turn will eventually be entering lower quality genetics into the breed. The point of only pedigreeing the best rabbits is to try to ensure that only the best will be used for breeding purposes.
I got burned by buying a pedigreed rabbit before I really knew anything at all about the standards. (Still don't know a whole lot). That rabbit would likely be the first off the table no matter which judge looked at it.
That is one of the reasons my stomache turns when I see people breed a couple of pedigreed rabbits, and as soon as a litter is born, they advertise they will have show quality, pedigreed rabbits for sale on XXXX date.
I have a litter of 4 mini lops right now, they are a month old and I still won't know for another month or two if any of them are show quality.
I guess, to sum it up, by pedigreeing all of the rabbits born, it dumbs down the breed.

I do understand what you're saying. I wonder if there is a way to do it in such a way as to designate 'pet quality' or something on the pedigree? I mean, first of all, I believe there would be an issue with anyone trying to do anything serious with rabbits who only have one pedigreed parent. I would want to make it very clear that the rabbits are not intended to be anything more than pet quality. However, I also understand that, unless a breeder is willing to have pet rabbits surgically altered before being sold, there is NO WAY to prevent them from being bred by their new owners. I don't even, necessarily think it's a bad thing as some people will be breeding for meat rabbits or whatever. The only issue I can really see, if what I'm talking about is even possible, is people trying to claim that they were mislead into thinking it was a show quality animal.

Truly, I can even see some benefit in tattooing (and giving a pedigree, even if it's a partial pedigree) to 'pet quality' rabbits, so that if someone later tries to do anything 'legit' with the rabbit, it can always be traced back to pet stock. Or am I wrong about that?

Basically, I'm just looking at it for two things, being able to track my litters and a 'selling point' to people who only want a nice pet. People are silly, as we all know.

-- Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:49 am --

I keep records on everything that I breed. To me that's what a pedigree is. It's a record of the ancestors of the animal. It tells you things like color, weight, etc. For me it is a learning tool, it helps me to look back and see how color is derived and where certain traits come from. I also tattoo and photograph and weigh everything at weaning, unless I harvest it, in which case I don't bother. Then I enter all the information into globalpedigree.com
I have a lot of rabbits and it's the easiest way to be sure who is who. My tattoo system is
# for the year the kit was born
First letter of the sire's name
First letter of the dam's name
odd # for bucks
even# for does
So Re-Mark-Able's and Tansy's litter of 5 does and 3 bucks were just tattooed:
5RT0, 5RT1, 5RT2, 5RT3, 5RT4, 5RT5, 5RT6, 5RT8

So at any one time I don't have more than one buck or one doe with the same first letter for their name and I don't name my rabbits until they are parents, until then they are just IDed by their unique tattoo.

The #5 is just for 2005? I guess that would be another question, is how people use their tattoo codes.

That is one of the reasons my stomache turns when I see people breed a couple of pedigreed rabbits, and as soon as a litter is born, they advertise they will have show quality, pedigreed rabbits for sale on XXXX date

I also wanted to add that I agree with that statement. No matter how good your sire and dam are, a person would be lucky to get one or two really high quality rabbits from a litter. On the other hand, it's also possible for pet quality rabbits to throw a show quality rabbit, but it's far more rare than the other way around. Genetics are funny things. It's like how you can sometimes see this gorgeous movie star and see their parents and say "Um... how did THAT happen??" :lol: Or, two gorgeous people have a kid and... well... :x Funny stuff.

 

[Dood]

All my rabbits have pedigrees, even the mutts, because the general pubic erroneously assumes they are "better" in some way even after I explain to them that rabbit pedigrees are really just a family tree :shrug:

They do the same thing with dogs but "designer" dogs are changing that - maybe market them as "designer rabbits" bred for mainly pet qualities like colour, temperament and good hygene habits :mrgreen:

My rabbits are definitly NOT show quality Mini Lops or American Chinchillas but neither are most of the pedigreed rabbits out there and some are likely not even purebred and have a falsified pedigree

Any serious breeder would not be interested in a rabbit that didn't have winners on both sides of the pedigree or if they didn't recognize the bloodlines so I don't think it's a big deal.

 

[caroline]

Basically, I'm just looking at it for two things, being able to track my litters and a 'selling point' to people who only want a nice pet. People are silly, as we all know.

People who want a "pet" don't usually care about a pedigree. I tattoo MY rabbits so that I can always know who they are, now or later. They then have whatever life they have, at my place or somewhere else. If someone comes back later and has questions I can go back to my records, because I have them, and know who/what I am dealing with.

The whole question of "pet quality" is lost on me. I would only sell a "sound" rabbit. Some rabbits conform much better than others to the "ideal standard" that a group of people who show agree on. I am aware of it and do consider it when saving or culling a rabbit for my herd. I am much more interested in the health and reproductive functionality of my rabbits, than if they are going to win @ a show.

And there is nothing to prevent you from using a marker, like the letter "P" at the end of any tattoo to indicate that YOU consider this rabbit to be PET QUALITY. But every rabbit breeder starts where they start and most winning show rabbits probably have some PET QUALITY ancestors

 

[Susie570]

All my rabbits have pedigrees, even the mutts, because the general pubic erroneously assumes they are "better" in some way even after I explain to them that rabbit pedigrees are really just a family tree :shrug:

They do the same thing with dogs but "designer" dogs are changing that - maybe market them as "designer rabbits" bred for mainly pet qualities like colour, temperament and good hygene habits :mrgreen:

My rabbits are definitly NOT show quality Mini Lops or American Chinchillas but neither are most of the pedigreed rabbits out there and some are likely not even purebred and have a falsified pedigree

Any serious breeder would not be interested in a rabbit that didn't have winners on both sides of the pedigree or if they didn't recognize the bloodlines so I don't think it's a big deal.

Brilliant... That's exactly what I'll do since I AM breeding for color, temperament and... well not so much hygiene, but they ARE all used to having a litterbox and they MOSTLY use them.

Thanks, Dood!

How do you do your tattoo codes? I'm looking for some ideas on that.

 

[Prisma]

All my rabbits have pedigrees, even the mutts, because the general pubic erroneously assumes they are "better" in some way even after I explain to them that rabbit pedigrees are really just a family tree :shrug:

They do the same thing with dogs but "designer" dogs are changing that - maybe market them as "designer rabbits" bred for mainly pet qualities like colour, temperament and good hygene habits :mrgreen:

My rabbits are definitly NOT show quality Mini Lops or American Chinchillas but neither are most of the pedigreed rabbits out there and some are likely not even purebred and have a falsified pedigree

Any serious breeder would not be interested in a rabbit that didn't have winners on both sides of the pedigree or if they didn't recognize the bloodlines so I don't think it's a big deal.

True it seems people like the fluff when selling, the more "rare" it is or "special" the higher the selling price and point. I like the "designer" tag, as far as an advertising point goes and getting sales but then again its another one of those pop words that'll become more of a problem then help at some point. The right color and warm welcoming wording otherwise will pull people in too, using bright but non-threat or aggressive colors do well (bright greens, yellows, pinks, blues...but not so bright kills eyes).

I know several breeders that could care less about pedigree and buy based on the rabbit itself. Some very good names do that, Saynora being one of them as had purchased a friend's tri color rabbits (how many etc I do not know but friend is not a nationally known breeder etc). They were purchased on the rabbit's build. Buying by a pedigree is not sound practice, 2 GC can throw all pets.

 

[sunrise]

There are as many ways to do tattoo codes as there are breeders! I started out using a number and letter system, but then when I really started showing I found out that when I had more than one or two rabbits on the table I couldn't remember who was who just by the tattoos (had to look on a cheat sheet). I have started using an abbreviation of their name such as THMS for Thomas, etc. That way I know exactly what comments went with what rabbit. Just a way to help with this faulty memory of mine.

 

[Dood]

For my meat rabbits I just do their birth date (A for Jan, B for Feb etc... and the day) at about 4 weeks old so I can tell my 16+ chinchilla coloured kits apart :mrgreen: and refer back to my breeding calendar, if I sell them as purebred breeding stock or keep them as replacements I add to the tattoo - my prefix and their parents and what number in the litter

I ask the what the Mini Lop people want in the ear - some say nothing as they don't want their bunny to be in pain :roll: a couple asked for a phone number :x and others my choice

 

[Susie570]

People who want a "pet" don't usually care about a pedigree. I tattoo MY rabbits so that I can always know who they are, now or later. They then have whatever life they have, at my place or somewhere else. If someone comes back later and has questions I can go back to my records, because I have them, and know who/what I am dealing with.

The whole question of "pet quality" is lost on me. I would only sell a "sound" rabbit. Some rabbits conform much better than others to the "ideal standard" that a group of people who show agree on. I am aware of it and do consider it when saving or culling a rabbit for my herd. I am much more interested in the health and reproductive functionality of my rabbits, than if they are going to win @ a show.

And there is nothing to prevent you from using a marker, like the letter "P" at the end of any tattoo to indicate that YOU consider this rabbit to be PET QUALITY. But every rabbit breeder starts where they start and most winning show rabbits probably have some PET QUALITY ancestors

I agree with that as well, I honestly don't care what a person decides to do with their pet after they buy it from me (as long as it's treated well... and of course we can never even be sure of that). But, if they want to try and show it, or breed it, or whatever, I guess that's ok and I have no way to stop them. I just want to make sure people don't try to claim that I told them it was a show quality rabbit when I'm selling it as a pet.

As for improving the breed... I have mixed feelings about that. I think there is something to be said for 'hybrid vigor' being brought into the lines and, as you said, anyone who is SERIOUS about breeding and showing rabbits is going to know enough not to purchase rabbits for these things who don't have champions in their backgrounds, or at least who are champion quality rabbits.

I would (Secretly... or not so secretly) like to help establish Harli marked MLs as accepted in the breed. I'm not going to do it with the buck I have now... but maybe when I'm able to purchase a nice herd sire that will be something I can work on. I just love those splotchy colors. In the meantime, I just want to produce some pretty babies that I won't have trouble selling, because in spite of the STRESS, I find it rewarding. I love the rabbits, they're fun. They brighten my day and dangit, they may as well 'earn their keep'... ish... :lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

The few "pets" I've sold, no one was interested in a pedigree. But like Caroline, I only sell "sound" rabbits, meaning I only sell ones that are either breeding quality or that I myself would put on the table. "Pets" have a way of getting back into the gene pool, and I do this as a way of quality control. I ask over and over, making sure if the person even thinks they may want to get into breeding, that I provide a pedigree for that "pet." Almost everything that leaves goes with a tattoo, or the tatt is on the ped, when I sell to serious breeders. JW are the only breed I sell as pets.

I don't tatt culls, so out of a litter of 9, only my keepers get tatts.

I just started over with the new system. They get numbers in order of age, across all breeds, except JW, who have their names tatt'd in the ear.