still puzzled (but pleased) about breeding

[Rainey]

Last night when we made a last check on the rabbits, Limerick had kindled--6 kits. She was due yesterday--the last of the 4 does we bred in March and the second young doe. Neither of the older proven does kindled, then last week Kittery had 7 kits. So we're pleased to have 2 litters after the first 2 failures.
What is puzzling is that the attempt to breed Limerick didn't seem at all promising. She never did get darker than medium pink and the buck only mounted once, no fall-off and not an obvious lift. She wouldn't cooperate for another try even though we tried a few times. The breeding of the experienced does that failed to kindle were much more promising in number of mounts, clear fall-off and lift. We almost didn't put in a nest box for Limerick, but have made it our practice to give a nest box 28 days after any possible breeding.
I don't know what the lesson is from all this about how to judge the success of a breeding attempt. The one thing I'm sure of is always give them a nest box,however doubtful the breeding.
Pleased that she kindled in the nest box and the kits looked fed this morning.

 

[MaggieJ]

Glad to hear both your young does kindled. :bouncy:

Since you know the buck is fertile and the two young does kindled normal litters, it seems likely that your two older does have issues. Likely internal fat.

Michaels4gardens posted suggestions for a reducing diet for rabbits, but I can't remember just where. Maybe he'll chime in on this thread.

Willingness to breed and ability to conceive are not always closely linked. You need both. :lol:

 

[michaels4gardens]

I just cut calories from their diet,[root crops, grain , alfalfa ] while increasing roughage [feed mostly grass hay]
... after I get the weight loss I want, I increase the calories for 3 to 5 days, then breed

... I have had good luck building cages where the rabbits could jump up on a shelf. For some reason, fat does who were put in a cage with a shelf , were successfully bred a lot more than others.... maybe the additional exercise reduced internal fat, ??... or maybe it improved muscle tone in some beneficial way ???

 

[Rainey]

Thanks, Maggie and Michael. ( I don't know how to post one reply with quotes from 2 different posts--not so nimble on screens)
I knew that both willingness to breed and ability to conceive are needed, but I've been surprised throughout our rabbit raising at how often we've gotten kits from breedings that didn't look promising--brief mount and no fall-off. We try for more but sometimes after the one, the doe refuses more attempts and still kindles 6 to 10 kits.
The does that didn't kindle haven't been getting grain and only had roots during the cold winter weather. We don't feed alfalfa or pellets. They get hay and willow (fresh or dried) and are just starting to get more fresh green forage, but my understanding was that none of that is very high calorie. Perhaps we should weigh more regularly and that would pick up any build-up of internal fat.
I'm wondering if Casco will kindle--we rebred her when she failed to kindle. She's already given us 11 litters and I don't understand how to tell when a doe is getting too old to breed successfully. (With our goats, it's pretty clear when they get to a point that pregnancy and kidding takes too much out of them.). Hollis is headed for the crock pot. when we tried to rebreed her, she growled and spit at the buck both times and we didn't try again out of concern for the buck.
So we're still living and learning.

 

[michaels4gardens]

maybe a brief attempt in the opposite direction {more calories} might help, .. rabbits often breed [in nature] just after the new plant growth begins and more calories are available to them...

 

[Rainey]

maybe a brief attempt in the opposite direction {more calories} might help, .. rabbits often breed [in nature] just after the new plant growth begins and more calories are available to them...

I have had good luck building cages where the rabbits could jump up on a shelf. For some reason, fat does who were put in a cage with a shelf , were successfully bred a lot more than others.... maybe the additional exercise reduced internal fat, ??... or maybe it improved muscle tone in some beneficial way ???

Thanks, Michael, for your always helpful responses. I meant to mention in my last post that while we don't have a shelf in the cages, each one does have a bucket hung against the top and they often hop up into those which maybe offers similar benefit to a shelf.
I don't think any of the does were underweight or thin, but it is maybe harder to tell with their winter coats and them being about half silver fox. They are all getting fresh green stuff from outside. Through the winter they got wheat grown out into fodder and since we stopped that a week or so ago we've been feeding more of the dried cattail, nettle to supplement the few fresh green stuff available. If the breeding problem is about the does' condition, I find it hard to decide whether we should be feeding them more or less or something altogether different. (They do all have salt/mineral chunks chipped off a block we buy for our goats)

 

[michaels4gardens]

I have often had rabbits that stopped producing litters, or big enough litters, that I really had no idea what was going on with them. Sometimes, if it was a particularly good doe, I would persevere and keep trying for a while, ... but often it is fruitless...
It was most often, after they had a prolonged rest period between litters.
.. Some of those does had no internal fat issues ....

 

[Rainey]

Don't know if I should start a new thread or just continue here. Casco, our oldest doe, kindled yesterday, her 12th litter. I felt confused about whether to feed her more or feed her less after her first breeding this year failed to produce so just kept feeding as usual (except for the seasonal change from wheat grown out to fodder to new green forage.
This was her smallest litter ever--just 6. She kindled 9 kits 6 times and 8 kits 4 times and once had 7. She'll be 5 years old this fall. Are smaller litters typical for an older doe?
We plan to rebreed each of the does when their litters reach 5 weeks, which is when we usually separate the doe from the litter. Then we'll decide which 2 does to breed again for fall litters and keep through the winter. I still feel like there is so much I don't understand, but we're happy to have 3 litters after the 2 early failures this spring. The 3 week old kits are nibbling willow and other forage and oats along with the doe--and they're just so cute at that age.

 

[michaels4gardens]

as older does "time out" ,litters become smaller, they give less milk, and... are harder to get bred... If you got 5 years from her , -that is 2 or 3 years more than most breeders get from their does... I have had some does go further than that ,-- but 5 years is very good...

 

[EnglishSpot]

I have a 7 year old doe (DD's pet) who just gets recreational sex at this point with her 5 year old Mini Rex hubby. :lol: