Still pondering the colour of my doe

[Naelin]

Hello!
It's me again asking about genotypes!
I had two fauve de bourgogne whose coats look very different from each other, and I am not 100% sure what is the difference, genotype wise.

First there is my late buck Ton (first picture), who I'm pretty confident is A_B_C_D_ee
Then there is my doe Júpiter (second picture with the kit, all kits with Ton looked like that), who I assume is A_bbC_D_ee, but I am not actually sure.

I look at pictures of black and brown based orange and I cannot actually tell the difference. The doe has a lot of smut that looks quite black, but the coloured part of the tail is brown, which I've read indicates that her colour is actually amber (brown based).
Her undercoat is grey, Ton's was white.
I also attached a picture of Júpiter as a kit, and one that shows her belly. Could I get your help confirming if she's brown-based or what is the difference between her colour and Ton's? Also, could the orange tinge on her belly mean she has wideband genes?

Thank you very much!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello!
It's me again asking about genotypes!
I had two fauve de bourgogne whose coats look very different from each other, and I am not 100% sure what is the difference, genotype wise.

First there is my late buck Ton (first picture), who I'm pretty confident is A_B_C_D_ee
Then there is my doe Júpiter (second picture with the kit, all kits with Ton looked like that), who I assume is A_bbC_D_ee, but I am not actually sure.

I look at pictures of black and brown based orange and I cannot actually tell the difference. The doe has a lot of smut that looks quite black, but the coloured part of the tail is brown, which I've read indicates that her colour is actually amber (brown based).
Her undercoat is grey, Ton's was white.
I also attached a picture of Júpiter as a kit, and one that shows her belly. Could I get your help confirming if she's brown-based or what is the difference between her colour and Ton's? Also, could the orange tinge on her belly mean she has wideband genes?

Thank you very much!

Reds car vary tremendously in their shade due to the two factors you mentioned - wideband alleles, and whether they are black or chocolate-based - and a third element called rufus factors.

Most reds are wideband colors; yes, the reddish belly is a good indicator of that.

The only ways that I know to tell for sure if a red is black- or chocolate-based are 1) the pedigree (i.e. if the rabbit comes from two chocolate parents, you know it's chocolate-based) and 2) the color of the smut. Normally a rabbit is either one or the other (black <B_> or chocolate <bb>), and will not have both black and chocolate in its fur. Some of the black may be faded or rusty from sun or molt, but if the rabbit has black anywhere, you can pretty safely assume it is not chocolate-based.

If a rabbit is red, its undercolor should be creamy, while if it is a normal extension agouti, like amber, its undercolor should be be slate gray (dove gray in a chocolate). It's not 100% diagnostic, though; some red lines have a problem with bluish undercolor (I found that fault in some of my Mini Rex).

Below are two photos from https://wildriverrabbitry.weebly.com/mini-rex-color-guide.html, which is a site I use a lot.

The first shows amber, with dove gray undercolor and agouti ring color. Although the chocolate tips are not a strong contrast to the orange intermediate ring color, and the guard hairs are the same length as the underfur (this is a Mini Rex), you can still see the agouti tipping effect.

In normal fur, the tipping is still low-contrast chocolate, and the chocolate is not always a deep rich chocolate, but it still tends to be a bit more obvious due to the difference in lengths of underfur and guard hairs.

Here is an orange with blue undercolor, photo from the same site. While the undercolor is blue-gray, you can see that the fur is basically one color (faded at the base but not tipped with chocolate or any other color:


I have also found that ambers - in fact, most chocolate varieties - often have a ruby cast to their eyes, which you generally don't get in reds. But of course a chocolate-based red might...

I can't tell from the photos whether Jupiter has black smut or not, but I could see her being either a fairly smutty red or an amber (aka chocolate agouti). Again, if you see actual black, she is not an amber. She doesn't really strike me as amber from these photos, but subtle color differences can be hard to pick up on a computer screen, and your images are not high-res enough to really zoom in to look.

You may just be seeing the difference between smutty and clear color; you may also be seeing the effects of those mysterious rufus modifiers, which cause the deepening or lessening of the intensity of the red.

In any case, if all of her offspring with Ton were oranges/reds <ee> like the one in the photo, that would lessen the possibility of Jupiter being amber <E_>.

Can you get some photos of her fur being blown into?

 

[Naelin]

Thanks for the details Alaska!

I couldn't for the life of me get a good picture blowing into her hair, so I had to do the next best thing.
Some notes:
-When I said amber I meant <A_bbC_D_ee>, I didn't know amber meant <E_>! My bad.
-Definitely no ruby cast to her eyes. They are a nice uniform dark colour.


Smut on her face


Hair from her dewlap with grey undercolor


Hair from her side with white undercolor


This is how her 7 kits with Ton look, they had some difference in shade when born but they grew into the same shade. Their hairs have slightly lighter tips, but they seem to darken as they grow.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thanks for the details Alaska!

I couldn't for the life of me get a good picture blowing into her hair, so I had to do the next best thing.
Some notes:
-When I said amber I meant <A_bbC_D_ee>, I didn't know amber meant <E_>! My bad.
-Definitely no ruby cast to her eyes. They are a nice uniform dark colour.


Smut on her face
View attachment 44773

Hair from her dewlap with grey undercolor
View attachment 44774View attachment 44775

Hair from her side with white undercolor
View attachment 44776

This is how her 7 kits with Ton look, they had some difference in shade when born but they grew into the same shade. Their hairs have slightly lighter tips, but they seem to darken as they grow.

View attachment 44777

I don't think she's amber (aka chocolate agouti); she has no hint of ring color. Interesting that she has different undercolor on her dewlap than on her side, but it all looks like a red coat to me. I could believe they're all chocolate-based. The smut doesn't look really black, and the baby's ear tips also look like they might be just slightly tipped in chocolate. But again, it's hard to make a sure call from the computer screen...

Those are really pretty rabbits.

 

[Naelin]

Oh boy, this will be harder than I thought! Everyone else I have is <B_>, though the boy I'm supposed to be getting in some months may be <Bb> and may help figure out things.

I guess then what I can be more or less sure of is that both of them are <A___C_D_ee> but Ton was high rufus and very well bred for uniform colour while my girl is paler and smutty all over (Makes sense since he was from some big reputable breeder while she was from a backyard breeder like me)

Jupi's smut looks black, not-so-black, brown, depending on the light, the time of day, the phase of the moon... I really cannot make my mind around it. For example it does looks black in this picture for me, but not in others. (Yes, she is an absolute sweetheart that loves being held like a baby, how did you know?)


I went and looked at the babies, and what I can tell is that the darker lines in the ears at the very least are not very dark


Agh! I will end up looking at their individual hairs with a microscope at this point...