some problems with young....need opinions.

[grumpy]

Got a problem....I have an outstanding doe that kindled 12 kits on 3-9-12. She saved all of them. Her next door neighbor had 5 on the same day. Naturally, I fostered 3 youngsters over to her. I didn't "mark" them because I hadn't planned on saving more than two or three out of this litter.

Fast forward to about 12 days ago. One of the 9 kits was "fuzzed" up in a corner. Dirty-butt, died by the end of the day. "Crap! The misfortunes of raising rabbits.". Next day, another one! And so on and so on. Yesterday, the last kit in the litter expired. PLUS, there were 3 in the next pen that died also. All dirty-butts, all fuzzed up, all same symptoms.

Tried increasing hay, reducing pellets, added old fashioned "oats"...treated entire breeding herd for coccidiosis. Nothing seemed to make a difference. Here's the kicker...I necropsied one of the early kits that expired. It had an impacted bowel that was as hard as a rock. As each died, I could "feel" the hard bowel in them. All of them appeared to be "gassy" with bloated bellies.

G.I. Stasis? Maybe? This problem does seem to be transmissible, or maybe it is just circumstantial. I've lost an odd one here and there throughout this spring growing season. Milk going bad in the doe? Some are heavy milkers. I may have removed the nestbox too quickly causing the young to take a chill by sleeping on the wire. Thereby interrupting their digestive systems. I've thought of everything I could think of, and tried nearly everything in my box of tricks.

Mucoid Enteritis? The impacted bowel would seem to eliminate this malady. However, I may be wrong. I've managed to save "one" young doe that had the symptoms. But, she was older than the others, and out of a different litter. I have had her on straight hay for nearly a week. Her growth has slowed, but her bottom has cleared up and she seems to be in better spirits. More bouncy.

The doe that lost this litter is the same doe that gave me one of the most perfect litters I've ever raised. It makes no sense to me. Any suggestions or thoughts I haven't considered? This is a first for me. I thought I've seen everything in rabbits. But, apparently I was incorrect.

With the warmer than average days, and sometimes cooler nights, I was wondering if this couldn't have had an impact on, or maybe caused, this problem.

The only thing that makes any sense to me is the fact that I "may" have pulled the nest boxes too quick. Youngster's intestinal tracts are easily upset and sleeping on the wire could have chilled them just enough to set this in motion.

I don't like leaving a nest box in the pen any longer than absolutely necessary because of the bacteria that is present. However, I have started "switching" the box with a clean one with wood shavings and a little of the top debris out of the old one for a similar scent for the youngsters. They seem to accept this very quickly and settle right down to napping.

Grumpy

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sorry for your loss, Grumpy.

Thankfully for me, I have no experience losing litters to illness, so I can't offer help in that regard. But when I pull my nests, I replace it with a plastic cat litter jug for shelter for the kits. I put some pelleted pine bedding in it and add material from the nest. They take to it right away, and it also gives me a place to feed them grain where the does can't eat it before the kits get their fill.

 

[grumpy]

Sorry for your loss, Grumpy.

Thankfully for me, I have no experience losing litters to illness, so I can't offer help in that regard. But when I pull my nests, I replace it with a plastic cat litter jug for shelter for the kits. I put some pelleted pine bedding in it and add material from the nest. They take to it right away, and it also gives me a place to feed them grain where the does can't eat it before the kits get their fill.

LOL....made 8 "resting-boxes" just for that purpose 3-days ago. I think keeping their tummies warm makes a big difference in how well they do at that critical stage from mama's milk to solid foods.

I don't believe there is an actual "CURE" for this. But, I do believe we can do things that will possibly "prevent" it.
Grumpy

 

[MaggieJ]

This seems to be a fairly common problem, but one I have never seen in my rabbits. From what I have gleaned from other people's experiences, these seem to be the common factors:
1. A pellet or partly pellet diet, which may be too high in protein for easy digestion.
2. Changes in the weather.
3. Early removal of the nest box.

I truly believe that the reason it does not happen with my rabbits is because they are on natural feed and have the additional shelter of a box, which helps them deal with temperature fluctuations. On chilly days, I never see a kit until late afternoon... They snuggle up in the nest tunnel until the temperatures warm up.

Young rabbits seem to be extremely vulnerable to chilling, even when they are fully furred and hopping around everywhere. I am inclined to think that getting chilled interferes with their ability to digest their feed and that this starts the downward spiral. We already know that pellets are harder to digest than hay and grain. I do realize that not everyone can do natural feeding and no one can control the weather, but the leaving them some kind of a nest box is something to consider and I see that you have done that. It should make a difference with future litters.

Once it begins to happen, it does seem to spread throughout the litter, but I am not sure if it is contagious or if the kits, having been exposed to the same conditions, succumb independently. You did exactly the right things to try to combat it, but very few seem to recover. It is interesting about the impaction you found... One usually thinks in terms of diarrhea and bloat, not impaction.

 

[skysthelimit]

I had a rash of g.i. stasis. I lost one doe, with a three week old litter in with her, one of those kits die, one 13 week old from a completely different line, a 8 wk old and two does from another line. The two does came around when I took them out to run around and gave them greens to eat. The only thing that changed is the weather and I used a different feed, because I could not get to TSC to get Manna Pro. Loss is inevitable, but it's never fun to so many at one time.

 

[Diamond]

Wow, I am sorry for your loss, Grumpy. I am learning so much by reading this thread. I am glad you have the gumption to do a necropsy and try to find what went wrong. One thought, on the bleating/ diarrhea versus impaction, is that often the first symptoms of a fecal impaction are gas, bloating, and loose liquid stools... I'm a RN and see this over and over again in the elderly population. So it can be hard to differentiate between enteritis and impaction based on the symptoms.

 

[grumpy]

Wow, I am sorry for your loss, Grumpy. I am learning so much by reading this thread. I am glad you have the gumption to do a necropsy and try to find what went wrong. One thought, on the bleating/ diarrhea versus impaction, is that often the first symptoms of a fecal impaction are gas, bloating, and loose liquid stools... I'm a RN and see this over and over again in the elderly population. So it can be hard to differentiate between enteritis and impaction based on the symptoms.

Diamond: The impaction was at the junction of the upper intestine (Iliocecal orifice?) and lower intestine (Ceceocolic orifice?).(Backed up 3"-4" into the upper intestine) The lower intestine was gassed up like cheap party balloons (Septicemia?). There was a small amount of liquid discharge around the vent. The pain had to be horrific. I came up on the youngster as it was striving to stay alive. It wasn't a pretty picture. I quickly put the youngster out of its misery and followed up with the necropsy.

With this malady, I firmly believe, that by the time the symptoms appear, it's too late for the youngster anyway. I'm changing my habit of pulling the nest box as early as I have. And, I'm going to give the litter a new nest box that has been cleaned with fresh bedding and a dab of the top litter from the old box when they are about 12-14 days old. It's double the work, but well worth the effort, if it's successful. Especially in this cooler weather. A small chill could possibly be one of the major causes for this problem.

With rabbits, flexibility and intense curiosity is necessary.

Maggie: I tend to agree with you. I'm not sure it's transmissible, but that the young are affected at various times due to their different vitalities.

Grumpy.

 

[MaggieJ]

The accepted "wisdom" on feeding fryers has for a long time been to offer them feed free-choice. Lately though, some knowledgeable members have switched to a measured amount of feed. I suspect that limiting pelleted feed may help ward off the GI problem, especially when coupled with offering a good amount of grass hay. Along with providing some kind of a box for warmth, this change in feeding may help to reduce the incidence of GI problems in fryers. I hope so. It's a horrible way to lose youngsters and if we work together to determine what works and what doesn't, perhaps we can make something good come of this.

 

[grumpy]

The accepted "wisdom" on feeding fryers has for a long time been to offer them feed free-choice. Lately though, some knowledgeable members have switched to a measured amount of feed. I suspect that limiting pelleted feed may help ward off the GI problem, especially when coupled with offering a good amount of grass hay. Along with providing some kind of a box for warmth, this change in feeding may help to reduce the incidence of GI problems in fryers. I hope so. It's a horrible way to lose youngsters and if we work together to determine what works and what doesn't, perhaps we can make something good come of this.

LOL...Funny you brought up the limited feed...I just started that yesterday! My concerns are "How much and How often?" I've started giving hay twice a day and feeding "healthy" in the evening. Most feeders had just a smidgen left in them this morning. By mid-afternoon, all were empty and the youngsters were waiting by the cage door. I fed hay first...took a break....then fed the pellets. The hay seemed to appease their "ravenous" hunger. (They act like they're starving to DEATH!) This is going to take some time trying to get this figured out. You've got to adjust feed to number of young and age of young.

I don't accept "defeat" very easily. I'm too darned old and hard-headed to throw in the towel.

Grumpy

 

[skysthelimit]

The accepted "wisdom" on feeding fryers has for a long time been to offer them feed free-choice. Lately though, some knowledgeable members have switched to a measured amount of feed. I suspect that limiting pelleted feed may help ward off the GI problem, especially when coupled with offering a good amount of grass hay. Along with providing some kind of a box for warmth, this change in feeding may help to reduce the incidence of GI problems in fryers. I hope so. It's a horrible way to lose youngsters and if we work together to determine what works and what doesn't, perhaps we can make something good come of this.

LOL...Funny you brought up the limited feed...I just started that yesterday! My concerns are "How much and How often?" I've started giving hay twice a day and feeding "healthy" in the evening. Most feeders had just a smidgen left in them this morning. By mid-afternoon, all were empty and the youngsters were waiting by the cage door. I fed hay first...took a break....then fed the pellets. The hay seemed to appease their "ravenous" hunger. (They act like they're starving to DEATH!) This is going to take some time trying to get this figured out. You've got to adjust feed to number of young and age of young.

I don't accept "defeat" very easily. I'm too darned old and hard-headed to throw in the towel.

Grumpy

Someone on a holland site stopped feeding grain for her 6-12 wk olds, and said her mortality rate dropped to none out of so many dozen litters. Maybe for her, the cold weather made the grain hard to break down in their bellies? so I stopped feeding grain to the kits. At this point I'd try anything.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

Grumpy,I was wondering at what age do you take your nesting box out. ?Sorry for your losses.

 

[grumpy]

Grumpy,I was wondering at what age do you take your nesting box out? Sorry for your losses.

Right at 28 days, maybe a day or two earlier. But, with the fluctuating temps we've had I'm fairly sure they chilled a little during the night.

 

[HendricksHearth]

Sorry, I am arriving late to the discussion, but was the previous litter with this doe on the same feed and the same kind of hay? Are your other animals eating this same feed and hay without problems?

I personally have found that this problem can be caused by kits that eat primarily pellets and don't drink enough liquids or eat enough hay. I wonder if being able to move a lot/exercise for gut motility has anything to do with it since the handful of times I've experienced problems with something I've produced were in smaller cages. I believe stress can be a major factor and bullying from the stronger kits, too. I've also never had any luck trying to save them once they become seriously symptomatic- not even with veterinary intervention, fluid support, medications, etc. Fortunately, I've seen this very infrequently, but I also try to free-feed hay and always make sure they have a lot of room and water. Sometimes putting a few feed bowls and water bottles out can help keep out with keeping the competition low.

Best of luck!

Lauren

 

[ladysown]

taking your nestbox out at 28 days is not taking them out early. Early is usually consider at 14 days.

 

[grumpy]

taking your nestbox out at 28 days is not taking them out early. Early is usually consider at 14 days.

it was a few days before 28...with the cool temps, them sleeping on the wire may have made a big difference. 14 days? Dang...they've barely got their eyes open! I've never done that...that's way too early.

Lauren: No changes....everything was the same. I did leave the nestbox in longer because it was definately colder at night. Been feeding hay once a day for quite some time. 30"X30"X18" standard wire cage. Been using this sized cage since the 1970's. Automatic waterers, 7 1/2" fine-X feeders. This is the first time I've ever had this problem. I was struggling to get a handle on it and trying to figure it out. Hope I don't see it again anytime soon, either.

I am increasing the amount of hay to twice daily and more being offered with each feeding. The rabbitry looked pretty good this morning. No more youngsters looked like they were in distress. Keeping my fingers crossed. I'm headed back down in a few hours for the evening chores. Got a few nestboxes that need to be put in with expectant does. Four are due Saturday.

Grumpy.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

Ever thought on feeding them unlimited hay.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

taking your nestbox out at 28 days is not taking them out early. Early is usually consider at 14 days.

it was a few days before 28...with the cool temps, them sleeping on the wire may have made a big difference. 14 days? Dang...they've barely got their eyes open! I've never done that...that's way too early.
Grumpy.

Grumpy, I think it depends on your individual circumstances. If it is cold, I leave them in till they are spending most of their time OUT of the box, usually between 3-4 weeks. When it is warm, I take it out at 14 days because if I DON'T, I end up with kits that have nestbox eye. I have not had one with it since I started doing it this way.

That being said, it was cold here this morning so I took your advice and put a "snuggle box" in for the kits that are still nursing but have no nestbox. Never hurts to be on the safe side...