Six of One, Half Dozen of Another(meat rabbits)

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Bad Habit

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My meat rabbits are eating me out of house and home. It's become a struggle to feed them.

The two New Zealands I have eat a lot. They eat their 9oz per day(they both weigh about 9lbs healthy weight) and beg for more. I supplement with hay, so they have lots to munch on.

The meat mutts don't seem to eat as much, but the kits are far slower growing. 12-14wks to reach butcher weight, and even then, they're closer to 4 than 5lbs. I usually butcher because I've gotten tired of feeding them.

The New Zealand kits grow out and reach butcher weight in 8-10wks.

I am selling the meat mutts, but keeping back a doe from the line I've been working with - I kept a kit from the meat mutt's first litter(so 1/2 NZ) and she recently had her first litter(3/4ths New Zealand). I am hoping that her litter shows the thriftiness of feed that the mutts have, but the growth rates of the NZ.

I'm probably hoping for too much.
 
I believe that is something we all wish for!

My meat mutts have done well this year, but I have no idea how much they eat!

I'm overfeeding, I know I must be, because there has been too much fat on their bodies since I switched to purina pellets.

Well, part of it is that it just takes more food to create more growth. But the NZB rabbits and mixes that I had ate like...Moose, and never grew faster than my mutts do.

Every now and then, I could get a SF that grew like crazy on almost nothing. I've made them the backbone of my mutt lines in hopes of improving feed to growth ratios. :shrug:

But, I think that it's my feed that needs improved more than the rabbits themselves at this point.
 
Every one of my rabbits maintains a healthy weight on 1oz per 1lb of food. I'm quite pleased with that.

I'm having issues getting the NZ doe to produce, though. First litter was 11, but early and all DOA. After that there's been a litter of 1, a litter of 7(4 doa, one was deformed) and a litter of 3(one DOA). I bred her back immediately after the last litter of 3, figure she can handle nursing 2 and growing another batch. I honestly think my problems with her are that I am too often swayed by her cute face and cage-hanging attitude and have been known to give her a little something-something when she's only supposed to be getting hay to tide her over til pellet time. AKA - I let her get fat. If she doesn't produce more with this next litter, I intend to put her on a diet(the feed I feed has a lower protein mix that when I bought it once because they didn't have my regular feed my rabbits started losing weight), and then try her again.

The problem is, there isn't much selection. If I post meat rabbits for sale, they're snapped up almost instantly, no matter what pricetag I put on them. Next to nothing available, they're mostly meat mutts or New Zealands that trace back to the breeder I bought my buck and doe from. I actually bought red and white because she didn't colour cross, so figured I might get some form of hybrid vigor from them.

The grow outs, 10 in a cage, going through 15-20c of feed a day(dunno how many oz in a cup). I'd fill the hopper once in the morning, and once in the evening, and it would be close to empty each time(but not quite). It holds 10c of feed.

I butchered the 3NZ's, and 2 of the meat mutts, and food consumption has dropped from 15-20c to 5ishc. Only having to fill the hopper once a day, and even then, it's mostly just a top up to make sure they will have all they need. The NZ's were about 3wks older than the meat mutts.

It's frustrating.
 
Wow, I was considering culling one of my girls for only producing 7 kits/litter!

If she were mine, I'd breed her back right away after each litter until you start seeing litters of at least 5 or more kits. It shouldn't stress her body at all to nurse and carry with so few kits, and it might help take some of the fat off.

And yeah, if your meat mutts are being slow to grow out it's fine to process them earlier. Otherwise, it's just a huge input of feed to get that last 1/2 lb.

I'm quicker to process small rabbits early than better growers, because those better growers are usually giving me more meat for the food I'm putting into them, and for some reason, the slower growers of mine usually have more body fat.
 
The amount of feed I needed for NZ was the biggest reason I didn't stay with them. I find the Rex to be far more thrifty about feed.
 
Yeah, there's no way I'm paying 200 per rabbit plus transport for rabbits that I would only be using for meat breeding though :p
 
Your plan is solid, BH... that's how you go about improving your lines. Replace your stock with better stock from the next generation, culling for qualities you want.

Or you may need better stock, but that's up to you to decide.

Feed thriftiness isn't just per breed, though, it's per line. I have a NZW that lives on almost nothing, even when she's pregnant or nursing. Sometimes she eats too little, and needs a boost with BOSS or something. I haven't bred her to my Cali buck, yet, to see what happens there. I'm hoping to raise a doe from the pairing to succeed her. And to be her cage buddy... she misses Nibbles.
 
3mina":3a4ee6el said:
The amount of feed I needed for NZ was the biggest reason I didn't stay with them. I find the Rex to be far more thrifty about feed.

I agree 100% with this statement. I started off with NZ and Californians. They are really hard on feed. When I got Rex rabbits, I was amazed that they were so thrifty on food, but still grew out to a good rate. I have NZ and Calis mixed with Rex now. Getting some great grow out rates while still thrifty on food.



http://www.tinyhomesteaders.com
 
well, I'd love to have some standard rex... but I'd never be able to butcher any, because they'd sell as breeders so quickly!!

I just cannot justify the monetary output when my ultimate goal is quick growth for the freezer.

The NZ's aren't bad on food, really... they keep their weight on 1oz/lb and a handful of hay per day. It's just that they've come to expect good things when I approach the cage, and I am happy to oblige. The way to a NZ's heart is very clearly through their stomach!
 
I've never fed more than 5 ounces of feed to an adult NZ.
I've got does bumping 12-13 pounds.
They get a shade under 4 ounces and a small fodder biscuit per day.

If I fed one ounce per pound of live weight.......
all I would have is fat rabbits who couldn't breed.
One tuna can shaken off even is all my rabbits get per day.
Of course this is with NO youngsters.
When raising a litter they're on full feed
.

They get hay a couple times a week.
My rabbits aren't fat and they produce quite well on this regime.

Replacement stock is on full feed until they're 4 months old.
They are on 4 ounces per day after that.

I pay no attention to their begging.......
Rabbits are excellent pan-handlers'.

Grumpy
 
^^^ I was told that they should be fed 1oz/lb of body weight, all rabbits. I've been following that guideline basically since I started breeding... Is there a formula I should be following, or is it just guesswork until I find the point where they start losing weight?
 
My question also... Ive seen the videos of your rabbits Grumpy,they sure look healthy. I have been trying to cut back the pellets but my DH seems to think they are STARVING!.. LOL.
But seriously my buns are about the same weight as yours.I don't feed fodder but they have free access grass hay, and a fruit or veg treat every day, just a small treat like a half romaine lettuce leaf or an eighth of a banana or apple. Sometimes a half slice dried whole wheat bread, maybe once a week on that because I know it's not good for them. But like you said they are expert pan-handlers...
Oh and they are mutts...New Zealand,Giant Chin, Flemish. so 12-14 lbs or so. They are still young only around 10-12 mo.
Then I have my young does at 6 months just bread two of them they were way more willing than the two older ones.Guess we will have to see on that outcome with the heat here and all. I "test fired" my bucks for a few days before the does were ready so we will see.......
 
Bad Habit":zwbq9rb8 said:
^^^ I was told that they should be fed 1oz/lb of body weight, all rabbits. I've been following that guideline basically since I started breeding... Is there a formula I should be following, or is it just guesswork until I find the point where they start losing weight?


I don't honestly know if a 12 pound doe can consume 12 ounces of feed
each and every day. While growing......they need full feed to develop. At 4
months I cut back on their feed to 4 ounces per day...................period.
They'll continue to grow and will mature without being overweight.


katiebear":zwbq9rb8 said:
My question also... Ive seen the videos of your rabbits Grumpy,they sure look healthy. I have been trying to cut back the pellets but my DH seems to think they are STARVING!.. LOL.
But seriously my buns are about the same weight as yours.I don't feed fodder but they have free access grass hay, and a fruit or veg treat every day, just a small treat like a half romaine lettuce leaf or an eighth of a banana or apple. Sometimes a half slice dried whole wheat bread, maybe once a week on that because I know it's not good for them. But like you said they are expert pan-handlers...
Oh and they are mutts...New Zealand,Giant Chin, Flemish. so 12-14 lbs or so. They are still young only around 10-12 mo.
Then I have my young does at 6 months just bread two of them they were way more willing than the two older ones.Guess we will have to see on that outcome with the heat here and all. I "test fired" my bucks for a few days before the does were ready so we will see.......

I handle 42 working does....7 to 8 mature bucks.....10-14 replacement does
and bucks......150-250 youngsters from 1 day old....to finished market fryers
8.5-9.5 weeks old.

I feed only 3 items.....Pellets.....Brome Hay.....Barley fodder. Unfortunately,
I don't have the extra time to gather other food-stuffs. Plus, those may or
may not affect the flavor of the fryers going to market on a bi-weekly basis.

Every task is geared towards one goal......fryers headed to market in above
average condition and all between 5.5 and 6.0 pounds. I prefer the smaller
weights because of economics and personal opinion. However, my personal
opinion takes a distant third, fourth, or fifth when it comes to meeting the
demands of chefs in restaurants around the Midwest. Those individuals are
the driving force in my business. I've got one chef whose criteria requires
all processed fryers delivered must weigh 3 pounds...4 ounces. Not an
ounce over..........not an ounce under. AND he wants 6 to 10 every other Friday.

If a young, 5-month old doe is in good flesh and receptive.....she gets bred.
You'll find these does often become the matriarchs of the herd over the years.
In the past, I kept does open until they were 8-9 months old, and then tried
to breed them. Those does "NEVER" could compete with the young does
started at 5-6 months old. Plus, I've noticed the young does have less
tendency to kindle on the wire as would their older sisters. WEIRD...but true.

Rabbits are "beggars" of the worst degree!!! Walk into my rabbitry in the
late afternoon and you'll hear what sounds like a breakout in a prison with
all of the inmates rattling their cell-doors. Yet, to prove my point, once the
food is dropped into their feeders, they'll ATTACK the feed...........for about
2 minutes. Then they'll lay quietly beside the feeder with over half their feed
remaining to be eaten. They LIE!! quite well.

In truth, most observers find my stock a "Little Thin". Which, in all honesty,
they are. But....for good reason. Fat Rabbits....don't Breed well. Once Fat
they're nearly impossible to get back into cycle. My does could carry more
weight but would create more production problems. I DON'T feed heavy prior
to kindling....I wait....let the doe kindle and slowly increase their feed over
a period of 4-5 days until they're on full feed and the youngsters are old
enough to consume the milk the doe produces.

I've got some very heavy milkers that I must carefully watch to make sure
their milk production doesn't overwhelm the litter and the doe begins to
have problems with mastitis. (Start weighing your litters @21 days old)
That weight will give you an excellent reference as to your does milk production

BTW: I've got some Am-Chins I'll start using here in a few months. They're
an excellent meat rabbit and the hybrid vigor can do nothing but help with
meat production. My Cal bucks crossed onto my NZW does give me an
outstanding fryer that finishes quick and produces a very compact, dense,
carcass. The Flemish, unfortunately, have too much bone to meat ratio
to be a viable market fryer.

Grumpy.
 
I decided to finally weigh about how much pellets per rabbit per day I actually feed to bucks, replacement stock, and dry does.

4.5 oz. of pellets, treats like greens and forage, occasional oats or boss (right now, about 1-2 times a week), and an unlimited amount of hay, mostly timothy, with a few alfalfa cubes provided weekly.

I know overfeeding, their bodies always have fat on them. Too much fat.


I'm trying to work them off the pellets altogether, but so far I've only managed to add to their feeds, and not reduce the pellets much :lol:
 
With barley fodder........an equal portion fed reduces the equal portion
of pellets required. 1-2 ounces of fodder means a reduction of the same
amount of pellets.

I've cut my pellet requirements by 20-25% on a daily average.
Average daily consumption of pellets averaged 85# per day for a
30 day period.

Fodder is far less costly....but does require a certain amount of labor.
I'm continuing with the fodder even with the cooler temps.

grumpy.
 
So, okay. 4oz per rabbit, and as much hay as they'll eat? I'm feeding alfalfa, but they only get a small handful daily, and on sundays they get no pellets but LOTS of hay.

Now that I'm paying attention, I'm noticing that some of my rabbits don't finish their feed, but those that DO are the ones I'm having issues breeding.

If I am giving my 9lb rabbits 4oz a day, obviously my lionheads and hollands don't need 4oz per day... should I be giving them 2? 1?

And what do you consider full feed, grumpy?

I am definitely going to try this. If I can start going through pellets slower? Yeah, that'd be great.
 
Bad Habit":3l40po1t said:
So, okay. 4oz per rabbit, and as much hay as they'll eat? I'm feeding alfalfa, but they only get a small handful daily, and on sundays they get no pellets but LOTS of hay.

Now that I'm paying attention, I'm noticing that some of my rabbits don't finish their feed, but those that DO are the ones I'm having issues breeding.

If I am giving my 9lb rabbits 4oz a day, obviously my lionheads and hollands don't need 4oz per day... should I be giving them 2? 1?

And what do you consider full feed, grumpy?

I am definitely going to try this. If I can start going through pellets slower? Yeah, that'd be great.


I used to feed Alfalfa hay 2-4 times per week. It was never free choice
because of the rabbits' tendency to waste more than they ate. HOWEVER,
I learned that alfalfa tends to contain mold because of the humid environment here in the Midwest. Several months ago, I switched to Brome
hay. It's rougher and looks coarse....but the rabbits eat the daylights out of it.

I still don't feed the hay each and every day to the entire herd. I concentrate
on making sure does with a litter that's out of the nest box get hay at least
every other day. Youngsters moved into the grow out pens have the hay
available 24/7 as it helps with their digestive system. "Someplace" in here
I've got the plans for an outside hay feeder that's pretty darned good about
saving hay from being wasted.

An animal on full-feed is one that has feed before them 24/7. There are only
two circumstances in the rabbitry where this situation occurs.

First:) Does with litters 5 days and older. A large majority of my does are
very heavy milkers. I'm slow to put them on full feed the first few days
post kindling. I'll gradually increase their feed for 4 days and by the end of
the 5th day, they have feed before them all of the time. Their heavy milk
production can overwhelm a new litter and the doe ends up having mastitis
difficulties.

Second:) Youngsters in the grow out pens that are finishing for market. The
hay has a tendency to slow pellet consumption and helps reduce the
dreaded "bubble-gut" syndrome newly weaned and moved youngsters
sometimes have trouble with. I also give them a healthy portion of barley
fodder every evening which also reduces pellet consumption. It slows their
growth rate small portion but I have less digestive difficulties with them as
I would with fryers on a pellets-only diet.

I'd guess a Lion Head wouldn't need more than a couple of ounces of pellets
per day. But, I've never raised them so I'm only making an educated guess.

95% of my brood-stock consume their daily ration of pellets within an hour.
If I notice just two or three pellets in the feeder by the next feeding, the
ration is cut 25% for that day. I don't want them to become overweight
because..................FAT RABBITS....DON'T BREED WELL.

Hope this helps.
Grumpy.
 
Oh okay. Your "full feed" is what we've always called free fed.

I *think* I've got it understood, mostly... Still having trouble thinking that these pellet vacuums can survive on 4oz of pellets a day.

Got new measuring cups today, and realized that my large breed rabbits were actually getting about 12oz a day, and the small breeds are getting between 5oz and 6oz. So I am now armed with my scoop that holds 2oz.

I'm going to try 2oz on the small breeds, and 4oz on the large breeds, and see if they start dying of starvation, or whatever, LOL.

and it's 4oz per DAY, not per feeding?

Thanks so much for your input, Grumpy! I know that you know what you're talking about, and I appreciate you taking the time to try and help me help my rabbits. If this gets Tofu breeding to her potential, I'll have to send you a thank you gift, lol! <br /><br /> __________ Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:59 am __________ <br /><br /> I gave the buns each their new rations(2oz for small breeds, 4oz for large breeds) and they didn't act any more starving this morning than they have in the past, however there was a lot less feed in the drop pans, so maybe you're onto something. I gave them each a handful of hay and they all dove right in, but they always do when there's hay involved.
 
Bad Habit":vl3dwbxf said:
Yeah, there's no way I'm paying 200 per rabbit plus transport for rabbits that I would only be using for meat breeding though :p
You can get Rex for far less than that, BH....where are you located again?
Also, your NZ that isn't producing, i just culled one like this. She had what looked to be a uterine infection going on when I necropsied her. Maybe try a course of PenG and then rebreed her and see what happens.

__________ Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:27 pm __________

Bad Habit":vl3dwbxf said:
well, I'd love to have some standard rex... but I'd never be able to butcher any, because they'd sell as breeders so quickly!!

I just cannot justify the monetary output when my ultimate goal is quick growth for the freezer.

The NZ's aren't bad on food, really... they keep their weight on 1oz/lb and a handful of hay per day. It's just that they've come to expect good things when I approach the cage, and I am happy to oblige. The way to a NZ's heart is very clearly through their stomach!

Get a single Rex to use for meat crosses. I find that Rex/Cal or Rex/NZ make excellent meat rabbits.

__________ Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:28 pm __________

grumpy":vl3dwbxf said:
I pay no attention to their begging.......
Rabbits are excellent pan-handlers'.

Grumpy

:yeahthat:

They will eat as much as you give them, doesn't mean they are actually hungry... ;)

__________ Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:31 pm __________

Bad Habit":vl3dwbxf said:
^^^ I was told that they should be fed 1oz/lb of body weight, all rabbits. I've been following that guideline basically since I started breeding... Is there a formula I should be following, or is it just guesswork until I find the point where they start losing weight?

I think that ratio is what is put out by the feed companies... :? I generally say "1/2 to 1oz per lb". All my adults get a 3/4 cup of feed, 6oz by weight, and that is it. My rabbits range from 8-12lbs. The larger ones get a rounded measure, smaller ones get a level measure. Lactating does and weanlings till 12wks are free fed. <br /><br /> __________ Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:34 pm __________ <br /><br /> "If a young, 5-month old doe is in good flesh and receptive.....she gets bred.
You'll find these does often become the matriarchs of the herd over the years.
In the past, I kept does open until they were 8-9 months old, and then tried
to breed them. Those does "NEVER" could compete with the young does
started at 5-6 months old. Plus, I've noticed the young does have less
tendency to kindle on the wire as would their older sisters. WEIRD...but true. "

THIS^^^^^^

I cannot tell you how many times I try to explain this to people that say "Oh you should NEVER breed before 8mos!!!! It's WAY too early. It will stunt their growth, I know because I read it on the InterWebz..." :roll:
 
I am in Ontario, Canada. The problem is finding them. I've been told by a couple of people that you can pick them up cheap at shows, but all I can find to be shipped up is expensive show stock. And then I have to find/pay for transport besides. If I could GET Standard Rex, I'd have to keep the NZ's for at least a little while, as I would be able to sell the kits for more than I could sell the meat.

If these guys can keep their weight on eating only 4oz a day, I'll be laughing. That would cut the food consumption by half.

I'm hoping Tofu's problem is just that I've let her get fat. I mean, if they can keep their weight at an appropriate level on 4oz a day... I've been feeding twice as much as they needed, and she's not much of a food waster, she vacuums all I can give her. When she is on a litter, she can easily eat about 20oz all on her own a day, her food dish is ALWAYS empty when I check them, and I put food in the nestbox for the kits besides.
 
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