si silvering?

[Zass]

So...what does everyone know about this gene?

It's supposed to be recessive, but it crops up in first generation crosses. (correction, it seems to crop up visually in first gen crosses)

for example SF X mutt with no silvered rabbits in background whatsoever:

The rabbit is 8 weeks old.
Is this the result of one copy of si silvering, or a lot of random white ticking that may have been selected for along with the silvering gene in SF rabbits?

Another interesting note. Wraith here,(the second rabbit pictured) is a purebred SF as far as anyone knows.
I just see a few stray white hairs.

I was able to get him as a cull rabbit from rothrabbits. I'd like to note that this rabbit's whole line was culled and is not at all representative of what they sell.
He doesn't display any silvering that I can see (I was very lucky, and am grateful that they allowed me to buy him for one of my mix breed projects, since his father bred free of steel, so I can get agouti based 1/2 foxes, and breed back to concentrate the amount of fluffy! yay)

I don't have his exact birthday, but I'm pretty sure he's between 3 and 4 months old.
Anyway, would it be safe to assume he isn't carrying ANY copies of the si silvering gene?

Or perhaps he has an invisible copy that will pop up later when his kits are crossbred?

 

[skysthelimit]

Not much is really known about silvering inheritance. From my pics, it was obvious the FA Crosses were nicely silvered, some better than my pure SF.

 

[Zass]

I can only guess some of Wraith's ancestors must have been silvered, otherwise they would have never been called silverfox to begin with. I am interested in seeing what he throws with my rainbow of mutts.

 

[WildWolf]

I don't think anyone knows exactly what types of genes the SF have. But, I think of the SF silvering gene as more like a gene with tons of modifiers. I have one pure SF who is so heavily silvered he is almost white, another who has very little at all, and one with even, standard silvering. All pure SF. The one litter that the heavily silvered one sired so far has turned out all with extremely heavy silvering.
And then, silvering is supposed to be different from stray silver hairs... I'm not sure what the difference between stray white hairs and silvering is.

 

[akane]

There are 3 sets of silver genes. si3si3 seems to be the strongest silvering and is found on the purebred argents.

It definitely isn't fully recessive. More of a partial dominant because Sisi3 produced some still rather silvered rabbits. More silvering than any silver fox I've seen.

I believe this was a first generation cross

Breeding together Sisi3 rabbits resulted in a broad range from the full silvering of my champagnes that are very light grey to very light silvering. I only used argents for my mutts but my creme d'argent started with some NZ so I don't know her exact genetic combo.

This would be a 3rd or 4th generation silvered black tort from creme x champagne crossed to a mini rex x creme

 

[Zass]

not sure what the difference between stray white hairs and silvering is

I don't know what causes stray whites. Modifiers? They are common enough and generally selected against in all breeds where one can see them. I've read that crossing rew to colors is bad because your colors could get more stray white. I can only guess this is because breeders of rew rabbits can't see the white to select against it and remove it from the gene pool. :shrug:
SF, silver, and argent breeders also wouldn't really be able to see stray white. I'd imagine it is something encouraged instead, in only those breeds.

My own SF buck is not what anyone would consider heavily silvered, but the 1/2 fox babies have more then what I would normally attribute to stray white.

 

[akane]

I couldn't find a good self based si group to compare but there are a bunch of red/fawn of some german breed with s1 and s2 in various combos on rabbitcolors http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/si/1.html . Aside from rabbitcolors the different silvering genes are only covered on international sites with a different gene designation and often text not in english so I couldn't get much info, especially about the silver fox.

The black based si1si1 almost looks like even fewer hairs than the one you are wondering whether it has a silvering gene
http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entry/show.html?id=1035

I wonder if Sisi1 would be weak enough to not show silvering in some cases and then show up later when combined with another si gene or with/without some modifier that was helping hide it.

 

[Zass]

I think it's safe to assume that some modern SF lines have been infused with argent si3.

So...What happens when you cross a si3 to an si1 rabbit?
Would you get aa B_ C_ D_ E_ si3si1 ?
Could this partially amount to some of the inconsistency in SF?

I wonder if this can help explain why sometimes SF breeders cross two silvered rabbits and end up with buns like Wraith?

(Pure speculation, of course, I just want to know everyone's thoughts on it)

Oh, and what about silver fox colored Mini lops?

 

[Sagebrush]

Silver fox colored Mini lops? I would love to see some of those!!!!

 

[akane]

There's a netherland type (dunno about size) champagne colored rabbit on that site. http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entry/show.html?id=298
An otter version http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entry/show.html?id=811

If you did combine si genes would one win out, both combine to create a greater effect than either, or even cancel each other to some extent? I'm not sure how you'd tell since the breeds have been crossed here and there. The really heavy silvering seems to be the only one you can count on to breed true.

 

[JessiL]

Here are some Champagne d'Argent x American Blue crosses. I always, always get black with a little bit of silvering from that cross - apparently my Champagne buck does not have any goofy recessive genes hanging out. I think the amount of silvering looks somewhat like a silver fox, but of course the fur is normal rollback. The silvering comes in gradually and unevenly just like a Champagne's; these kits were about 5 weeks old.

 

[WildWolf]

I know I sound ignorant, but... could someone explain the si1 and si3 differences? I'm assuming there's also a si2...

I have a pure bred SF, although he does have some great grandparents who carry the non extension gene, and some who carry the Angora-type hair gene. He sired a litter of 5, and all 5 rabbits had their silvering grow in at different rates, but they all ended up like this:

 

[Zass]

could someone explain the si1 and si3 differences

If only we knew them!
As far as I know, most or all the research on si silvering was done with European breeds.

I believe they are separate but very similar genes. Can it even be guessed that they would be found on the same locus?

Its been assumed that heritage SF rabbits get their silvering from the silver breed.
Does anyone know what si they have?

It's pretty safe to assume argents have contributed to some of the modern heavily silvered lines of SF. Argents have si3. It seems to show up very strongly on first generation crosses.

As far as I'm aware, no one really knows how any of these genes interact with each other.

It's pretty obvious that it is not a standard recessive gene that requires doubling up to show.

Wildwolf, I would guess from the pics and your description that your rabbit would be the type that resembles the argent's silvering and inheritance. (pure speculation, and doesn't amount to anything more than one person's guess)

Without extensive genetic testing we won't ever really know what our rabbits are made of. I think SF in general are currently being selected towards the si3 type though.

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks for your reply Zass! Is there such thing as si2? Didn't the creator of SF breed own Flemish Giants and Argents?

 

[skysthelimit]

It's a lot of speculation as to what he did to create the mix. I wonder why he was so secretive.
On thing to say, one of the problems with the Blue Sf was the lack of consistent color across the specimens. Which I think is unfair, because consistency of silvering within litters is not an easy thing. I have lightly silvered ones, an moderate, but I don't have any heavy silvered ones yet.

As for stray/scattered white hairs, I've had some Sf and Rex with them, and they look whiter than the silvering on the Fox.

 

[Zass]

As for stray/scattered white hairs, I've had some Sf and Rex with them, and they look whiter than the silvering on the Fox.

Any pics of that?

 

[skysthelimit]

I have some Rex waiting to be culled that are obvious because they are self or otter black, but the SF were culled in the fall. I had a few in the litters with white toes, white spots on head and patches on the side. If it pops up again then I'll take some picts.

 

[Zass]

Oh ok, white spots. Those are easy to see and cull for with SF.

It's different than the large amounts of scattered stray white hairs I've seen on some NZ/flemish/general mutt crosses. It can look a lot like really light silvering. More like lightly silvered rabbits than the SF Wraith. I suspect it's just one of the modifiers that can contribute to a well silvered rabbits look. You know, can be carried and passed in addition to whatever si silvering they have, and carefully selected against in every non-silvered breed.

 

[skysthelimit]

had to pull out a pelt to tell you what the difference is. the silvering does not travel all the way down the hair shaft. towards the skin what looks like white turns into a almost translucent grey. scattered white hairs or white all the way down to the skin.

I've had all, three. sometimes people say that the scattered white hairs have to do with the Vienna gene. a lot of those white marks are function of the silvering gene, at least in silver foxes.

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks for clearing that up skysthelimit!!