Should I buy...

[GetYourGoat]

Some of you have been following my rough journey of late...in the process of finding some Netherland Dwarfs to start off my rabbitry.

Problem is, at this point in time I'm having a bit of trouble assessing rabbits...

Here are does available that I've been offered (far away, wouldn't want to drive three hours to only pick up one)
Chestnut doe, has had one litter, about a year old

Black otter doe, 8 months, hasn't been bred

I remember reading something about you want the rabbits to breed around six months...as the otter is eight and hasn't been bred (and wouldn't be able until I could find a buck that I like) should I pass? Also, if there is something I'm not seeing with the breed standards, please let me know that too ^_^

Thanks!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I'm glad you are finding other breeders!

I am not very familiar with Nethies, but they look pretty nice to me. I'm sure someone will chime in on the finer points of their conformation.

I remember reading something about you want the rabbits to breed around six months...as the otter is eight and hasn't been bred (and wouldn't be able until I could find a buck that I like) should I pass?

There is a misconception that rabbits hips "fuse" as they age, which may be where you got the idea that they should have their first litters earlier. While this is not true, does bred at a younger age often seem to have better litter outcomes than older does. Eight months is still fairly young, so she will probably do just fine- if not on the first litter, by the second or third.

Can you have the does bred to one of the breeder's bucks prior to picking them up?

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

Wow, those are gorgeous girls!!!

I would pick them up in a heartbeat. The chestnut has a gorgeous head, looks to me like thick ears, and a short body. I would look to see how she does with her shoulders, but they don't look low or weak. If she is even when posed from shoulder to HQ, then she has good shoulders.

Okay, really nice otter. Her head is a bit far forward, hinting at something is long (shoulder, mid section...) or she just didn't want to pose. Again, head and ears are nice. It looks like she has a more "puffed out" chest than the chestnut, which is what you want. 8 months is fine, I have found that my ND's tend to be better mommas if they are bred earlier though. Again, shoulders look pretty strong from this end (of course, a top view would really help) and her topline looks like it continues to the floor.

I would say these are great starter does, and if you get the right buck, then you'll be set!

BTW, chestnuts and otters are one of the interbreedable colors. Make sure that you don't get a shaded buck, since it will produce unshowable kits with the chestnut.

 

[Lizardslaps]

had to rotate looks really good though

 

[squidpop]

Other people on this site know way more than me ... I haven't been breeding as long as the others at all but... But here are my thoughts anyway. If you are getting a does, those look like true dwarfs so you might want to ask for false dwarfs instead to avoid kindling problems. I wasn't happy with my purchase of a typey true dwarf doe that I bought as a baby, because she didn't grow- she reached 800gms and was smaller than my smallest true dwarf buck who was 950gms and I was too afraid to breed her. I've since sold her to a pet home and bought a false dwarf who weighs 120gms as a brood doe. If you do get true dwarf does you should get two and breed at the same time because if you get peanuts in the litter you may have to foster an only kit to another litter so it doesn't freeze. Also, Those look like true dwarfs but perhaps they will grow to be larger than mine did- you could ask the breeder what size she thinks they will be when they grow up and what she thinks about size and kindling problems.

 

[DogCatMom]

Other people on this site know way more than me ... I haven't been breeding as long as the others at all but... But here are my thoughts anyway. If you are getting a does, those look like true dwarfs so you might want to ask for false dwarfs instead to avoid kindling problems. I wasn't happy with my purchase of a typey true dwarf doe that I bought as a baby, because she didn't grow- she reached 800gms and was smaller than my smallest true dwarf buck who was 950gms and I was too afraid to breed her. I've since sold her to a pet home and bought a false dwarf who weighs 120gms as a brood doe. If you do get true dwarf does you should get two and breed at the same time because if you get peanuts in the litter you may have to foster an only kit to another litter so it doesn't freeze. Also, Those look like true dwarfs but perhaps they will grow to be larger than mine did- you could ask the breeder what size she thinks they will be when they grow up and what she thinks about size and kindling problems.

Just checking--it's probably only a typo--but your false dwarf doe weighs 1,200 grams; yes? Just over 1 kg?

 

[Dood]

I agree they look pretty good.

Have either been shown as juniors (or seniors) and if so how did they do?

If you ask the breeder to have a buck cover them before you pick them up you could have kits within 32 days.

I was lucky with my Netherlands in that my true dwarfs rarely had birthing difficulties but I did have a moral problem with peanuts and decided not to breed two dwarfs and eventually I only had false dwarf brood does and practically no birthing issues. This also meant my true dwarf girls kept better condition and could still win on the show table as 5 year olds But the completion was not so cut throat in the 80's

 

[squidpop]

Yep, I made a typo- my false dwarf is 1200gms not 120gms -- lol!

 

[GetYourGoat]

Thank you everyone for the feedback! Just asked the breeder if she wouldn't mind breeding them before selling (which I absolutely didn't think of before, and is a fantastic idea to get me started). I'd have to cross the border, but only an hour and a half away, so waaay closer than most.

The breeder said the Chestnut has already been bred and is an excellent momma. She also says she looks a lot more broody now than in the pic. I am prepared that there will be peanuts, too. How do you tell if a rabbit is a false dwarf or not?

 

[Random Rabbit]

short answer... a False Dwarf... "might" be a bit larger... but the real proof would be that they Never produce peanuts. ( babies that get a double does of the dwarfing gene and will not survive)

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

The breeder said the Chestnut has already been bred and is an excellent momma. She also says she looks a lot more broody now than in the pic. I am prepared that there will be peanuts, too. How do you tell if a rabbit is a false dwarf or not?

False Dwarfs....well, you can tell that they don't have the dwarfing gene. They'll have a longer body, longer head, longer ears... basically everything is longer and bigger. I have a false dwarf and she actually looks pretty close to the standard, she's just a teensy bit overweight (3 lbs). They are really nice to have as foster and as production mommas, due to their larger size (larger litters) and ability to take care of more kits. Of course, with them, you have a 50% chance of getting BUDs (Big Ugly Dudes or Does) or a 50% chance of getting true dwarfs.

 

[GetYourGoat]

Good to know about the false dwarfs. I had read about that before but didn't quite know how one would tell the difference ^_^

The breeder is breeding both rabbits to her Blue Otter Grand Champion Buck which I am soooo so excited about as I would like to focus on blues in particular, so hopefully I'll get at least one or two kits which should really help me get established. Picking them up on Thursday..AH! Exciting!!!

 

[skysthelimit]

Sometimes you can tell.
My JW's keep getting smaller and smaller.
But I have a typey, little JW that has a leg, and she has not had a peanut yet in 4 litter of 6-8 kits. The sire is a typey 2.5 inch ear kind of a guy. Typey 2.5 inch 2.3lbs Otter doe just has a litter by the 2.03lb 2 inch eared buck, no peanuts.

I've had about 10 litters with the JW. These are all show rabbits, some with legs, small and typey with no peanuts, so someone is not a true dwarf, they are just small. I actually had got a few over sized ones I culled instead of using them for breeders. I just never know.

 

[Dood]

I had Brittania petites for a few months and they were TINY and neither had the dwarf gene but in Netherlands it's hard to get the cobby body and apple head without the dwarf gene.

In the racier types (at least when compared to NDwarf or HLops :mrgreen: ) such as Brittania Petits, Lion heads, Mini Rex, Mini Satins and Jersey Woolies it can be harder to distinguish the true and false dwarfs which is by I don't understand why it isn't bred out, or banned, in these breeds to avoid peanuts altogether

 

[skysthelimit]

In the racier types (at least when compared to NDwarf or HLops :mrgreen: ) such as Brittania Petits, Lion heads, Mini Rex, Mini Satins and Jersey Woolies it can be harder to distinguish the true and false dwarfs which is by I don't understand why it isn't bred out, or banned, in these breeds to avoid peanuts altogether

JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are. And they are posed nearly as upright as the dwarfs . They look a great deal like fuzzy ND's and I've seen a few fuzzy NDs and you wouldn't know.(they were developed from Dwarfs and French Angoras)

But still, one can obviously get small animals without two copies of the dwarf gene.

I think most people just believe it comes with the territory and consider it a breed hazard, instead of trying to breed it out.

 

[Dood]

JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are

I am sad to hear this.

 

[skysthelimit]

JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are

I am sad to hear this.

Why?
I don't hear of too many having breeding problems, all of my does except one was a maiden doe, and all have had decent sized litters with no problems. 6-8 kits is a good litter for a meat bun, very good for dwarf/compact breeds. What ever problems are plaguing ND and other Dwarf breeds, JW aren't suffering from them. Maybe ND breeders could take a lesson from their cousins the Jersey Woolies.

 

[HoppinHalfPints]

Why is it that everybody is always putting down Dwarfs? What made people so hostile towards my breed of rabbits? Is it because they sell better than larger meat rabbits as pets? I really don't understand why Nethie's have this bad rep. :? What makes them any different from other rabbit breeds? Is it because of the Dwarfing gene, which, by the way, is present in other breeds. People seem to forget that.

Of course, Netherland Dwarfs will have rabbits that follow the "norm" (aggressive, mean, bitey) but doesn't every breed have the chance of getting a nasty rabbit? Why is it that Dwarfs are always the ones who are put down as "mean, bad tempered, evil" when larger rabbits can be just as bad? Actually, mean larger rabbits are worse due to the fact they are larger and can do more damage.

JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are. And they are posed nearly as upright as the dwarfs . They look a great deal like fuzzy ND's and I've seen a few fuzzy NDs and you wouldn't know.(they were developed from Dwarfs and French Angoras)

That's not good. I have a friend who is starting to breed Jerseys, and apparently inbreeding with NDs is considered bad. JWs are starting to get smaller and more Dwarfy, which is not what a breeder wants.

What problems are you talking about? I prefer to use BUDs myself but haven't found really good ones outside my own breedings.

Rant off.

(Sorry if I offended any of you, just want understand.)

 

[skysthelimit]

Why is it that everybody is always putting down Dwarfs? What made people so hostile towards my breed of rabbits? Is it because they sell better than larger meat rabbits as pets? I really don't understand why Nethie's have this bad rep. :? What makes them any different from other rabbit breeds? Is it because of the Dwarfing gene, which, by the way, is present in other breeds. People seem to forget that.

Of course, Netherland Dwarfs will have rabbits that follow the "norm" (aggressive, mean, bitey) but doesn't every breed have the chance of getting a nasty rabbit? Why is it that Dwarfs are always the ones who are put down as "mean, bad tempered, evil" when larger rabbits can be just as bad? Actually, mean larger rabbits are worse due to the fact they are larger and can do more damage.

JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are. And they are posed nearly as upright as the dwarfs . They look a great deal like fuzzy ND's and I've seen a few fuzzy NDs and you wouldn't know.(they were developed from Dwarfs and French Angoras)

That's not good. I have a friend who is starting to breed Jerseys, and apparently inbreeding with NDs is considered bad. JWs are starting to get smaller and more Dwarfy, which is not what a breeder wants.

What problems are you talking about? I prefer to use BUDs myself but haven't found really good ones outside my own breedings.

Rant off.

(Sorry if I offended any of you, just want understand.)

Not inbreeding at all. They are essentially fuzzy ND's, by heritage and by conformation (like French Angoras are wooly meat rabbits). Just a bit bigger. JWs are already small, ideal weight is 3lbs, but minimum weigh is 1.5lbs. Take a look at the JW magazine. Woolies have always bee compact, much more tightly compact and of a shorter body than Mini Rex.
JW's were developed from NDs, so it's not unusual that a few good ones with the wool gene would make it back into the ND gene pool at the start. Occasionally someone gets a wooly ND. If you are wise, you don't use it. Occasionally you get a JW with really short wool, and if you are wise, you don't use it.
Someone asked on the JW page if they should go back to the ND to get a more upright head position. The general response is no, why when you have so many good JWs, but I bet if someone's made the suggestion, someones already done it.

I'm more concerned about their breeding abilities than temperament. Small rabbit with dwarfing genes get a bad rep period. I never bred my Nethie, but I have bred Hollands, Mini Rex and now the Woolies. I don't have any BUDS. I culled them, because they produce a higher number of BUDs. I have animals that are barely 2.5lbs, small hollands and MR, and have not had any peanuts. I had some issues with the Holland, but she did have successful litters before the 3 strikes kicked in, and she always had more than 4 kits. The Woolies out do themselves every time, with litters of 4-8.

So if ND's are producing small litters or are hard to breed, it's not the dwarfing genes fault, it's the breeders fault. I like to judge the rabbit by the standard, not the standard by the rabbit.


Oh, and there are meat and large breeds with good and bad reps as well for temperament, and small breeds with good and bad reps. I've had a few nasty MR, hollands and JW, but my pet ND was the sweetest thing ever.

 

[Dood]

Dood wrote:
JW are short and cobbly too, at least the ones that win are

I am sad to hear this.

Why?

Because it means that more peanuts will be born and die in the quest for champions, it means more does losing their first, second or even third litters before they are stretched out enough to give birth to live kits and it means more does dying from stuck kits.

IMHO the Netherland Dwarf, Hollands and now apparently Jersey Woolies, are the English Bulldogs of the rabbit world and it won't be long before does need to have Caesarian sections to get live kits.

I agree there are a few bloodlines that manage to win on the show table without having excessive birthing difficulties but changing the SOP so a more commercial body shape, longer ears and more streamlined head would give false dwarfs a chance and the possibility of the dwarf gene from being eliminated in rabbits.

Let me put it this way - if the German Shepherd breed had a 25% death rate in puppies from a know genetic mutation, and there was a higher possibility of the first or second litters being stillborn, and the was a possibility of the female dying in labour would you choose to breed German Shepherds and would you recommend the breed to others wanting to have puppies?

My answer would be "no"