Seriously, don't laugh

[Zass]

Does anyone else see what I'm seeing here?







I'm working with a really bad camera here, but I swear there is agouti-esque ticking and even a slight ring when I blow into the fur. It's not just a spot where black transitions to white, and it's not just brindled hair. Brindling is all-the-way-white and all-the-way-black mixed together.

It's almost GTS colored ticking in the fur. There is even a distinct difference, like the wave pattern where the ticked fur is only on the back and not the sides.

Anyone know what is going on? Not enough umbros? Too much rufous? Both factors?

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

uh oh
*sees first pic*
uuhhhhh ooohhhhh
*dun-dun! ominous shark attack music in background*
*sees next pics*
ohhhhh nooooo
*music getting louder and louder*

that really sucks. hope someone has an explanation or something helpful

 

[Zass]

I think, I'm seeing the kind of yellowish ticking that higher rufous chinchilla kits sometimes have on their backs for a while, but tend to outgrow.
My best guess on genotype is actually AA Bb cchdcchd D_ ejej. (Out of a chocolate and black magpie.) I've been line breeding these guys, and so far have only seen exactly what I was expecting genetically. No self kits, no fawns or torts. Big litters too.
100% japs and magpies, in more or less predictable ratios.

Since ej is at the same locus as steel, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that it could produce somewhat of a similar effect with the right conditions in place.

I'd guess, the fix would be to select for higher-umbros rabbits, essentially, selecting towards cleaner, darker color.

Along the same lines as how many of our meat breeds have been actively selected towards modifiers that would hide steel.
For example, when someone breeds a rew New Zealand with a black New Zealand, the most common colors are rew, black, gold tipped steel, and chestnut.

Chestnuts and visible steels are usually eaten, since they are not arba recognized colors for the breed. The black kits (including sneaky steels) are acceptably black new zealands, and may be shown, sold or bred.
Meat breeds tend to be crossed frequently, and genes found in one variety tend to make their way to another...New Zealands are quite often used to improve other meat types..
After a few generations (or a few 100 rabbit gens) of this, we seem to have meat rabbit gene pools that carry the modifiers to throw an exceptionally high amount of sneaky steels.

My point simply being that if those modifiers can be selected for in steels, then selecting for magpies that more completely hide the chinchilla color of their black fur should be possible as well. It might even be the same modifiers in play.

Interestingly enough, my adult magpies don't seem to have visable ticking. Unfortunately, I don't have too many home grown kits to compare to yet.

 

[Dood]

I've not seen this effect in my magpies either

At first I thought the rabbits in the pictures were washed out harlequinized chestnuts but then I realized they had white bands and must be magpies - very odd :hmm:

I think the Rufus may be the culprit - Chin is pretty much my only colour and I've been breeding to improve it for so long that Rufus is pretty much eliminated in my stock and I don't get the smutty kits anymore :mrgreen: and could be why I've not seen this in my lines

Hopefully these guys shed out to a cleaner magpie colouring

 

[twr]

Interesting. Everything I've read has been very explicit that ej does not show ring colour.

Halequinised chinchilla would not show magpie-like white stripes. I suppose the white might be caused by En, but you'd know if that was around and anyway the white would make the wrong pattern.

Have you looked at individual hairs to check that the colour really does vary along the hair's length? (rereading, it looks like you have)

The most exciting (well to me) but rather "out there" possibility is that this is a new E allele in which the part of ej that makes the orange areas (white in these magpies) has become separated from the part that makes the remaining areas black (rather than agouti). If they dont grow out of it this might be a real possibility.

 

[Zass]

No broken patten lurking around. Just ordinarily magpie harlequins, with ticking. :| High rufous is easily explained by the jap X magpie foundation for the line, since high rufous is favored in japs. I was told breeding to jap would not harm magpie color, but now I'm not so sure.

The most exciting (well to me) but rather "out there" possibility is that this is a new E allele in which the part of ej that makes the orange areas (white in these magpies) has become separated from the part that makes the remaining areas black (rather than agouti). If they don't grow out of it this might be a real possibility.

Twr, please do not tell me that my magpies may have mutated just to make sure that I couldn't get away from steel-looking rabbits.

 

[alforddm]

Twr, please do not tell me that my magpies may have mutated just to make sure that I couldn't get away from steel-looking rabbits.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I know your rabbits would do that to you just for the fun of it!

There are a couple of things that make it being a new mutation unlikely (well more unlikely than a regular mutation). First of all two kits in the litter are affected. Generally when a new color mutation pops up, it only affects one in a litter. The chances of two of the same mutation occurring independently in the same litter is astronomical. The only way I could see it happening would be if the mutation occurred in one zygote which then divided into twins. However, these two have different markings, so I doubt they are identical twins. Stranger things have happened but it's unlikely.

It could be a mutation occurred in one of the parent animals. Is this the first time the two of them have been bred? Are they related in anyway?

Have you posted this to the color genetics group on Facebook? I'd love to hear what some of them have to say, especially Samantha Cabrera I'm not familiar enough with the quirks of harlequins. It's possible this is something that pops up every now and then.

 

[Zass]

First time both parents were bred. The buck is the adult pictured above. I don't really think it's a new mutation, maybe just not something often talked about, especially if it's something they outgrow.

The color groups on facebook don't work for me. I know there are some knowledgeable people, but there are so many others that make me want to tear my hair out and scream. :roll: Here on RT, everyone has been so patient with educating new members one by one. We never have the floods of nonsense comments, or arguments.

 

[alforddm]

First time both parents were bred. The buck is the adult pictured above. I don't really think it's a new mutation, maybe just not something often talked about, especially if it's something they outgrow.

The color groups on facebook don't work for me. I know there are some knowledgeable people, but there are so many others that make me want to tear my hair out and scream. :roll: Here on RT, everyone has been so patient with educating new members one by one. We never have the floods of nonsense comments, or arguments.

Yeah, it drives me crazy when people who have no clue just guess. I just ignore everyone but Samantha and a few others that actually make sense.

 

[Zass]

Got some better pics today!! I don't have time to post them all now, but here is an unticked kit next to one of the ticked ones.


What really gets me, is that they don't even have the decency to look like silver tipped steels. :slap:


<br /><br /> __________ Wed May 04, 2016 8:53 pm __________ <br /><br /> Just asked the show breeder I bought ALL of my harlequin stock from. She has no idea, and has never seen this before. :-|

 

[alforddm]

In the middle picture...It looks like there are two different colors of black. A solid normal black band and then a ticked band. Is it really the way it looks or is it just the light playing tricks?

Interesting that your show breeder has never seen this before. Since you go your stock from her, you would have expected it to show up if it was something in those lines...the plot thickens...

 

[Zass]

The back, and just a bit of the collar are the only ticked parts. The same place you would see agouti-like color on higher rufous chinchillas. I have pics of those somewhere, I think... <br /><br /> __________ Wed May 04, 2016 10:50 pm __________ <br /><br /> This might just be the result of my having brought out some of the worst gene combinations by line breeding. If that is the case, it's almost to be expected..

 

[FourRingCircus]

Craziness!

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall as you were first noticing this... I can only imagine the thoughts running through your mind! How soon was it visible?

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

I would wonder if the pair that produced this also have this come up in litters bred to others? and if not you might be able to kind of track the genetics based on their line breeding of who they came from and who might be harboring and passing on whatever modifiers are producing that. I hope that makes sense haha. all this modifier talk starts over my head quickly other than rufus and red/tort shading.

 

[Zass]

Craziness!

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall as you were first noticing this... I can only imagine the thoughts running through your mind! How soon was it visible?

I was starting to see it right around the time their eyes opened up. I think I'm still in a state of denial about it though, especially since the two most heavily ticked kits are my favorites in terms of markings.

I've already promised to cull them from the line, but now, you know, I'm a bit curious...What might happen if I bred the two of them together.
:idea: :twisted:

I would wonder if the pair that produced this also have this come up in litters bred to others? and if not you might be able to kind of track the genetics based on their line breeding of who they came from and who might be harboring and passing on whatever modifiers are producing that. I hope that makes sense haha. all this modifier talk starts over my head quickly other than rufus and red/tort shading.

I sorta have a guess as to where it came from, a certain odd looking senior animal, which kinda also gives me an easy option for eliminating it from the herd. Taking out the entire bloodline would set me back about a years worth of work though.

__________ Thu May 05, 2016 1:27 am __________

For starters, here is a pic displaying how high rufous sometimes manifests on chinchilla colored kits, or in this case, a harlequinized chinchilla kit.


They do outgrow this phase.

As my odd senior animal.
I have no convincing evidence of this, but, take a look...

This was the first pic I took of him right when I brought him home. I remember thinking that it looked like he needed to replace some fur on his back half, nothing unusual right? You can kinda see the cut-off line where the fur stops being black. It's a shame that I don't have better pics from that time period.


He help onto that stuff for a long time.
He shed plenty during the year too There were times I pulled off big handfuls of loose fur while grooming him. I thought "Messy potty habits?" Perhaps, spraying walls, and then sitting next to them?

Over 6 months later, the hair is still in need of replacing in the exact same place.


Still didn't red flag, but now, looking back...I've seen damaged hair look like this, so I'm still not sure.



__________ Thu May 05, 2016 2:19 am __________

I don't remember it still being there at the time of his death though. You know, I actually promised Celice I'd skin out his paws and tail an embarrassing amount of time ago. I don't think I'd have made that promise if he looked like that. I suppose, now is as good a time as any to get him out of the freezer and get to work.

 

[Winterwolf]

It's a shame you have to cull them. They're so gorgeous, even if they are genetic oddballs. I'd take them home with me in a second if I didn't live halfway across the country... and, ya know, already own more rabbits than I know what to do with. But I completely understand wanting to keep something like that out of your bloodlines. Anyway, hope you solve the mystery!

 

[a7736100]

I like them too. Seems like coon, skunk, or opossum left some genes.

 

[Easy Ears]

I'm a bit curious...What might happen if I bred the two of them together. :idea: :twisted:

You should try it! Not many people can get such an opportunity to create a new color! I say go for it! Who knows what you could discover! They are very cute/pretty!

 

[Zass]

Ring color on kit:

The pelt. (Celice, I finally finished prepping it)

The buck, nothing off looking from here, and he finally did molt out that damaged hair.


So we can take a close look at his undamaged fur.



I don't know about you guys, but, I think I can see a difference between white hairs and hairs with less black color then they should have. It isn't anywhere near as pronounced as what the kits have. It might just be, poor color on the hair shaft. :shrug: <br /><br /> __________ Thu May 12, 2016 11:22 pm __________ <br /><br /> My chocolate magpie doeling from a different litter (same basic genetics) is also ticked..

 

[alforddm]

I vote you test breed and see if anything unusual pops out.