Satin Breeders, How to decide who to keep? UPDATED WITH PICS

[Smith's Rabbits]

I have been raising satins since 2009, so you would think by now I would be a pro at knowing what to look for in a keeper. However up until now I have only ever had one pair of Siamese Satins. So I havn't kept any babies back.
I recently got an unrelated buck, and then lost my four year old. So I am wanting to keep back a doe and a buck from the current litter I have. These are 3 month two week olds at this point. Born on April 14th. I don't have pictures of them to post and have you evaluate, because I think I have that down. My issue is what is most important in going forward. There where six I sold one as a Pet Quality. There is a second buck I have ruled out because of his hindquarters. That leaves me with two bucks and two does. None are as dark as I would like, but I am looking at color last. From my memory ( went over them a couple days ago) One doe has a nicer coat then the other but the other has a better hindquarters and over all body, if I remember right. The one buck is small then the other and is by far the lightest of all of them. He however has an amazing body, a good coat, and a nice sheen. He is quite a bit smaller then the others, though I would need a better scale to be sure of how much. I do plan to get some pictures on Monday, but would like your opinion on what is most important. In reading the standard I noticed that type is worth 45 points while fur is worth 30.
That is really pretty close. I mean if you had a rabbit with good type and awesome fur you could easily win out over a rabbit with awesome type and bad fur.

We only just started showing last fall so selecting for show quality is still new to us! Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Hazel]

When i couldnt decide, i kept both.

 

[ottersatin]

I would say to:
Keep the Rabbit or rabbits that most impress you.
Watch them grow as there are sometimes awesome
changes as a youngster goes through it's growth.
Some times the scraggly ones will surprise you.
Don't toss the Baby out with the Bath Water!
Give them a bit more time before you make your final decision,
at that point keep the one or ones that "please YOU the most"!
You are the one who will have to live with them.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[Smith's Rabbits]

Well I had hoped to cut down the number from four to at least three so I have room for upcoming babies. Eventually I will just be keeping one buck and one doe, but I guess I can give them another month before I decide for sure.

Thanks for the advice! I'll post pictures when I get some.

 

[SatinsRule]

I would say to:
Keep the Rabbit or rabbits that most impress you.
Watch them grow as there are sometimes awesome
changes as a youngster goes through it's growth.
Some times the scraggly ones will surprise you.
Don't toss the Baby out with the Bath Water!
Give them a bit more time before you make your final decision,
at that point keep the one or ones that "please YOU the most"!
You are the one who will have to live with them.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

Yeah, what he just said. You'd be surprised how much knowledge there is to be gleaned from this post as it pertains to culling satin rabbits. Late bloomers are the real keepers far more often than not.

__________ Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:28 am __________

I have been raising satins since 2009, so you would think by now I would be a pro at knowing what to look for in a keeper. However up until now I have only ever had one pair of Siamese Satins. So I havn't kept any babies back.
I recently got an unrelated buck, and then lost my four year old. So I am wanting to keep back a doe and a buck from the current litter I have. These are 3 month two week olds at this point. Born on April 14th. I don't have pictures of them to post and have you evaluate, because I think I have that down. My issue is what is most important in going forward. There where six I sold one as a Pet Quality. There is a second buck I have ruled out because of his hindquarters. That leaves me with two bucks and two does. None are as dark as I would like, but I am looking at color last. From my memory ( went over them a couple days ago) One doe has a nicer coat then the other but the other has a better hindquarters and over all body, if I remember right. The one buck is small then the other and is by far the lightest of all of them. He however has an amazing body, a good coat, and a nice sheen. He is quite a bit smaller then the others, though I would need a better scale to be sure of how much. I do plan to get some pictures on Monday, but would like your opinion on what is most important. In reading the standard I noticed that type is worth 45 points while fur is worth 30.
That is really pretty close. I mean if you had a rabbit with good type and awesome fur you could easily win out over a rabbit with awesome type and bad fur.

We only just started showing last fall so selecting for show quality is still new to us! Thanks in advance for any advice.

If you combine all the categories which are scored for fur, they are worth the same 45 points that type is worth, BUT type is something which traditionally takes alot longer to correct than fur does. If you have a buck which displays good sheen and better overall type, I'd keep it around whether it was a little light or not. A large-bodied doe with bonzer fur will produce offspring which correct that. That buck you're describing sounds an awful lot like Jericho.

What it sounds like to me is that you have a litter of late bloomers. That is the neat thing about a satin. As Dennis said, the ones you don't think so much of right now may jump up and surprise the heck out of you.<br /><br />__________ Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:03 am __________<br /><br />In all the hullaballoo of the previous posts, I neglected to pass along what another breeder taught me in judging type. It's proven pretty effective, too.

Place the edge of your hand at the top of the rabbit's hip bone with your thumb facing up like you'd do when shaking someone's hand. Count the number of fingers between the top of the hip bone and the top line of the rabbit. That will tell you if its rise at the loin area is going to be what you'd want it to be. Also, pay attention to where the rise begins as it comes off the back of the neck. You typically want that to start immediately at the base of the neck without any gap or flat spot on the shoulder.

 

[Smith's Rabbits]

I can't picture the hand thing. Maybe I am just to tired. which edge of my hand? facing toward their head or their butt?

Thanks
Melissa

 

[SatinsRule]

I can't picture the hand thing. Maybe I am just to tired. which edge of my hand? facing toward their head or their butt?

Thanks
Melissa

With the rabbit posed, place the the outside of your hand (the side with your pinky finger) on the top of the hip bone, then count the number of fingers which fall within the area between the top of the hip bone and the topline along the back.

Here's a visual:


Here's another pose, this time using Big Show, my grand champion white satin buck who is a bit more cooperative in posing for me:


The edge of my pinky finger is on top of these rabbits' hip bone, and as you can see, they have nearly 4 finger widths of rise between the hip bone and the top line. 2 fingers is normally the baseline, 3-4 fingers is generally considered good to excellent.

 

[skysthelimit]

That would probably work for most commercial breeds? Gonna go try that on the Rexes.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Ooooh! New trick to try! Thanks, Satins!

 

[SatinsRule]

Ooooh! New trick to try! Thanks, Satins!

There is alot more to judging a satin (or any other breed, for that matter) than simply measuring its rise along their topline, but it's also rather naive for any satin breeder to believe that they won't finish consistently behind rabbits which have it when their rabbits don't, too.

 

[Smith's Rabbits]

Here are some pictures of them and the older doe I still have from an earlier litter. They are not posed the best as I would of had to trek all the way across the yard to get to the show table ( its very not portable)


First Smith's SB3 She was born on January 22nd 2012. So she is six months two weeks old or so in these pictures.

Then the two younger does. Full siblings to SB3 but born on April 14th 2012. So they are about 4 months old in the pictures.

MEI1

MEI2

The two jr bucks, same litter as the two above does.
MEI5

MEI3

They didnt cooperate as well as I had hoped. MEI5 is the very light buck I was talking about. He is still lighter/smaller then his siblings.

 

[SatinsRule]

Nice to see some old-school poses for a change. Today's breeder and judge alike are possessed with scrunching up the rabbits which cross the tables, and it takes away from the real rabbit IMHO.

I kind of like MEI5. He may be small, but trust me when I tell you that he'll likely be the one which blooms late and surprises the heck out of you. MEI3 looks to develop into a pretty good breeder. Very bold in the head and ears, and that's something which can make or break the overall appearance of the offspring. MEI1 and MEI2 seem to have the best front-to-back development in terms of where their topline starts and continues right on through the hips and over into the hind quarter. SB3 is a very nice overall specimen.

I think every rabbit whose pics you posted brings some really serious strengths to your program. If you cannot keep them all, put the ones you decide not to keep up for sale at the next couple of shows. There will likely be some breeder out there who will be able to incorporate their strengths into improving something in their own herds.

 

[Smith's Rabbits]

I had MEI6 out last night. I had him up for sale at $20 for a Meat/fur brood buck. Because when I did my first cull at 3 months I felt like he was the worst. Now I am not sure that he isn't the best. He is a bit shy and so hard to pose, and I didn't want to push it. I haven't worked with him in almost a month. And I realized I am not sure I have even taken him out in that month. He sure seems nice now though, and his coat is amazing. I need to pick one of these bucks to let go at $20 though because I have a woman planning on coming up this weekend. They just want the rabbit as a pet. I warned her this one was jumpy. Now I am thinking of just selling her one of the other two bucks. The coat on this guy. I don't know if its just because he has been in the garage, but the others are not in the sun either. Anyway here are the pics I took of him with my phone last night. I am going to start working with him daily and will have to decide by Sunday at the latest who I am going to keep.

 

[SatinsRule]

I had MEI6 out last night. I had him up for sale at $20 for a Meat/fur brood buck. Because when I did my first cull at 3 months I felt like he was the worst. Now I am not sure that he isn't the best. He is a bit shy and so hard to pose, and I didn't want to push it. I haven't worked with him in almost a month. And I realized I am not sure I have even taken him out in that month. He sure seems nice now though, and his coat is amazing. I need to pick one of these bucks to let go at $20 though because I have a woman planning on coming up this weekend. They just want the rabbit as a pet. I warned her this one was jumpy. Now I am thinking of just selling her one of the other two bucks. The coat on this guy. I don't know if its just because he has been in the garage, but the others are not in the sun either. Anyway here are the pics I took of him with my phone last night. I am going to start working with him daily and will have to decide by Sunday at the latest who I am going to keep.

Looking at all of them, I think MEI3 would be one of the ones I'd consider letting go. He looks very big-boned and bold in some key areas, but for him to work in your herd, you'd need some does who are strong in the shoulders and have a bit darker color, though. He starts off a little late in the shoulder area, and for someone who is looking for for a pet rabbit, if his temperment is one of a rabbit which doesn't seem to mind being handled, he'd be ideal for that purpose. Tell them to let you know if they ever decide to get rid of him though. He might just pan out into being something special as time goes on.

I would shy away from selling MEI6, though. It's never a bad idea to keep a buck around which possesses good fur. It's one less thing you'll have to go out and find later on when you're trying to improve the fur in one of your own doe's litters.

 

[Smith's Rabbits]

Thank you for the compliments. I will be letting MEI3 go first. She might take the two Mini rex I have for sale. That would be better in my opinion (they are far from show quality, and taking up valuable cage space) but as a breed they are also so much more hyper then the Satins.

I am going to do some cage moving next week and will get 6 out with the others where I can better compare them together.