Satin Angora x Rex Genetics Project Update

[feraltydreaming]

Good evening, everyone.

A few of you may remember me from my myriad of questions a two or so years ago regarding the genetics involved in working to see what would come of a Satin Angora x Rex cross. I was in North Florida/South Georgia at the time, so no Rex to be found.

Well, I have moved to Tennessee since then and, still, no Rex to be found. However, my housemate raises French Angoras and I raise Satin meat rabbits...so guess what? Yes, I am going to work on my own Satin Angoras until I can find a pair or trio of Rex to breed and then cross.

This actually works out quite well because, so far, I have yet to find Satin Angoras that have good type in Florida or Tennessee (I cannot find Satin Angoras in TN at all yet).

To start with, a broken black French Angora was crossed with a broken chocolate Satin meat rabbit buck. My F1 litter left me with some fantastically-growing hybrids that hit 5 lbs in 8 weeks and actually maintained very good type. The two that I kept were a chocolate charlie buck and a chocolate doe. Three days ago, Hansa (the chocolate doe) gave me an F2 litter that appears to be all broken chocolates.

I was expecting the satinization and longer fur (not wool yet) to start in the F2 generation. However, though the F1 generation was not satinized, the chocolate charlie buck and chocolate doe did have considerably longer fur than their Satin buck parents. Obviously, the F1 generation's longer fur is not wool...it was definitely fur. I was just surprised that some of the hybridization occurred that quickly.

With the 3-day old F2 litter, I already notice that some appear to have satinization...I am so excited to see if any of these will start to have wool! Does anyone happen to know if I should expect just longer fur along with the satinization or is there a possibility of any of these kits having actual wool with this only being the F2 generation?

*grins* MamaSheepdog and others, I will get clear pictures in the next few days, I promise!

*laughs* And, yes, I am being careful with colors mixing here...none of the breeding color to color without paying attention to how it can effect the lines and future generations...No to the shagoutis!

If anyone happens to know of any Rex breeders in TN or anywhere else close, feel free to let me know.

I just thought I would offer an update on the project since at least a few were interested.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[Disney]

Is angora wool the same as lionhead wool?
If yes, i can tell you what these F2 kits might look like when they're older.
A question before that.. do your kits have the triangle hair mark? With bald sides that baby lionheads have?

I breed satin dwarfs and got a litter out of a single maned satin doe and double maned satin carrier buck.
kit 1 = single maned satin carrier
kit 2 = single maned satin
kit 3 = double maned satin

And this is what my double maned satin looks like, he has straight hairs on his back but curls on his sides and head where the wool should be and he is extremely soft. Softer than my other satins.
Someone offered 100 euro for him when an average rabbit costs 7 euro. Guess what.. i'm keeping him Atleast for 1 breeding.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Good evening, Disney.

Thank you for your reply!

I will definitely have to get pictures tomorrow so that you can have a look. I think that French Angora and Satin meat rabbit are going to look a bit different at F2 than the pictures that you have shown here but I could be very wrong *laughs*.

Question: Are you crossing a Lionhead with a Mini Satin or a small Satin meat rabbit to get a satinized Lionhead?

Respectfully,
RW

 

[Disney]

Hi RW

I don't breed meet rabbits or lionheads and we don't have them in the netherlands, neither do we have meet rabbits here.
Just pet and breed rabbits.

What i do is, create a satinized netherland dwarf or something close to that. I cross them with my lutino dwarfs who are also partially ND.

My doe comess from germany along with the buck (he is not mine) as the breeders there breed a rabbit for fancy traits like satin/rex/löffelohr/wool/white-ear and try to combine all these traits in one rabbit.

These are the parents, they don't belong to a breed.

 

[feraltydreaming]

My mistake, Disney. Your mention of double manes and Lionheads brought me to think that you bred Lionheads.

Do you mind a few more questions?

What is "löffelohr"? And, what is a Lutino Dwarf? Are they a cross between a Netherland Dwarf and something else?

*laughs* Now you have me curious.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[Disney]

Not at all, feel free to ask

Löffelohr are rabbits with short and wide ears like mouse, translated to english they're called "spoon ear".
They have also shortened limbs and hindquarters like quinea pigs.

A lutino is a new mutation discovered in 1985. It dilutes a rabbits original color to yellow and eyes to pink.
The same mutation is also seen with mice and quinea pigs. But very rare in rabbits. There are roughly 100 of them worldwide (europe).
In holland we have around 15 of them, 4 of them are with me and i have some carriers aswell. Expecting 3 litters next month.

I know a american breeder who has a holland lop tort lutino buck and breeds carriers out of him to get lutino's in the F2.

These are my lutino's who are black underneath and do produce black kits when crossed with non-lutino's.
Lutino's come in different shades of yellow/orange, depending on it's color underneath.
A chestnut lutino is darker than a orange lutino but keeping similarities.

And here are some white ears who are recently found in germany and spreading through europe, especially with lops

 

[feraltydreaming]

*smiles broadly* Wow, I have learned a lot tonight.

I am curious, Disney, do you notice any physical problems with the Lutino rabbits and spoon-eared rabbits in particular? With the Lutino rabbits having shortened limbs and pink eyes, I am wondering if other portions of the body are effected in a physical since aside from coloration? With the spoon-eared rabbits, is it just the ears that are effected?

I find it interesting that so many recessive traits can be bred into one rabbit (or that is the goal at least) and nothing else be ffected.

I know that, with some mutations, other recessive traits can creep in that are truly detrimental to the rabbi regardless of whether the breeder has bred for good type or only one specific recessive trait, hence my questions.

Again, thank you for responding. I love genetics and I am really just getting into rabbit genetics. I am definitely looking forward to this adventure *grins*.

Respectfully,
RW

 

[Disney]

Hi RW

Let me first clear out that the lutino's have normal bodies, the only thing that lutino (also known as the the pink eyed dilution) mutation effects, is the fur and eye color. There is further no physical anomaly.

However, spoon-eared or SE (i don't have any in my herd atm, only a carrier) do have shortened limbs and hindquarters, which in some cases can cause a stumpy butt with missing tail and a weird nose that sticks out.
There is a rule not to breed 2 SE directly together to avoid these phyical occurrences, only SE to SE-carrier matings should be done. But most breeders don't care and do as they please. They don't seem to have any hindrance with this (unrecognized) breed.

Here is a link that tells explains everything with pictures but you probably have to translate it to english with google translate, if
you want to read it.

http://jasmins-discozwerge.jimdo.com/%C ... ffelohren/

 

[feraltydreaming]

Good morning!

My apologies for being a bit mixed up last night, Disney...tiredness *laughs*.

That said, to answer some of your original questions to me...

1. These crosses (F2 French Angora x Satin) do not have the triangle patch
2. Angora wool is technically the same as Lionhead wool in the sense that it is wool, but French Angora wool has a different texture...not as much crimp to the wool if I am not mistaken (someone please correct me if I am wrong).

I am going to do my best to get pictures of the original breeding pair, the F1's and the F2 litter today.

Also, Disney, I notice that most of these mutations seem to be occurring in dwarf rabbits. Are they exclusive to dwarf-types or do the occur in larger breeds as well??

Respectfully,
Feralty

 

[Disney]

I thought you crossed the F2 siblings together, but i understand now that you crossed them back to the satin parent which would result in a different outcome than i first suggested.
I think the F2 are single maned with wool restricted to the head area, true? (fluff between the ear and cheeks)

Which means that you crossing a single maned x short hair won't produce any double maned, hence the absence of triangle patches.
Your kits should be 50% short haired and 50% single maned, and 50% of them should be satinized and the other half would be satin carrier.

However, if you would breed two F2 siblings, you would definitely get kits with double mane + satin, like the rabbit in my first post.

Also, Disney, I notice that most of these mutations seem to be occurring in dwarf rabbits. Are they exclusive to dwarf-types or do the occur in larger breeds as well??

These mutations are not linked or restricted to dwarfs only. It's because dwarfs are VERY demanded here that they're involved.
Dwarfs are so wanted that people who sell rabbits LIE that their rabbits are dwarfs to get ignorant people to buy them, who don't know the difference between a true and false dwarf. They jut believe the seller and buy that rabbits because he told them it's a dwarf.

Lutino are recently being bred in lops, the bigger non-dwarf ones. I only know 2 breeders who breed lutino lops.
The thing is these mutation are not recognized, and many breeders are not serious with them.. they just breed them for fun and money.
I'm one of the 3 lutino breeders in holland that wants this new and raw mutation to be acknowledged on the show table.. and that's a lot of hard work + time. Other breeders serious breeders don't bother because they are afraid to take the lutino challenge.

And here is a flemish giant lutino with the white-ear gene.
http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/ent ... tml?id=808

And here a french lop lutino

 

[feraltydreaming]

My apologies for mis-wording, Disney.

Let me try to explain this again.

The original stock was a French Angora doe and a Satin (meat rabbit) buck. Out of their offspring (F1), I crossed a buck and doe to get F2 offspring.

I am still deciding whether I want to cross these F2 offspring to each other or crooss one of the F2 back to their parents or outcross to a different F1 buck or doe.

I have read and herad a lot of different opinions from research and otherwise.

Respectfully,
RW

__________ Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:58 am __________

Just to clarify also, Disney, I am working with the L gene (wool) and the SA gene (satinization). I am not working with the M gene for single or double manes

I hope that clarifies *laughs*.

Respectfully,
RW

__________ Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:47 pm __________

Good evening, everyone.

I just wanted to let you all know that I have pictures of the rabbits involved in this project so far, but I am having issues with getting them uploaded because I cannot seem to make a parent album. When I can upload the pictures, I will link my gallery.

Respectfully,
Feralty

__________ Sun Sep 29, 2013 7:00 pm __________

Yay! I finally managed to get the album to work.

Here is a link to the album containing pictures of all of the rabbits involved in this project.

http://rabbittalk.com/gallery/album.php?album_id=259

For those unfamiliar, the pictures labeled F1 are not supposed to have sheen. It is difficult to tell in the pictures, but some of Hansa's litter (F2) have sheen and some do not. I will definitely take pictures as they grow older.

Also, none of these rabbits are posed in any way, shape, or form, so if you want to see them posed, please feel free to ask if you want an idea of type.

The hybrid vigor definitely worked with the F1 generation (Nyvin and Hansa). They both hit 5 lbs at 8 weeks and Hansa and Nyvin was very eager to breed at 4 months.

Ugh, one of these days, I will figure out what is going on with Shonyu's coat. He has a lot of sheen when he is not molting out like he does not want to have a hair on his body.

For information's sake, I will be out-crossing the best 1 or 2 in Hansa's litter. I am seeing some type-related issues with shoulders that I would rather correct earlier than later. If the out-cross does not help to correct such, I will start with completely different FA and Satin stock that is more typey and work from there. This was just the only source for Satins that I had at the time.

If anyone has any thoughts, comments, etc. feel free to offer them, good, bad, or indifferent.

Respectfully,
Feralty

 

[Cspr]

Really like the Satin buck, but I see some issues with the FA's wool unless she was fairly recently shorn. Very short. I can see how she could maybe be mistaken for a Lionhead. -shrugs-

Of course, I'd suggest introducing a better angora doe with the type you want and try breeding her to the Satin buck. Keep a kit or two for breeding that have the best type, maybe a buck and breed him back to his mother? Hopefully from that you can get some type-y, Satin-carrying angora kits. Beyond that, you might want to try to breed two of Hansa's kits together and cull their parents if they have bad shoulders. That is, if you can get an angora Satin-carrier or a Satin angora-carrier from that, use them instead. Then you can take the type-y, Satin-carrying angora kit and breed them to an angora Satin-carrier or a Satin angora-carrier for some hopeful Satin Angora kits.

But do as you will, I'm just brain-storming because I love projects.

In other news, DISNEY. You scoundrel!! How come you never showed me these pika-looking rabbits--"spoon-ears"--hmmm?! I require them now way more than I should, oh my gosh. @.@ They're so interesting-looking. But they do have problems like Manx cats if you breed two "pures" together, you have to have a carrier. -nods- Which is useful, actually, for introducing a new breed. Like Lionheads or, on a more close note, the dwarf gene.

Do you mind maybe telling me more about your awesome European rabbit types, like the spoon- and white-ears and the Lutino? I love cool-looking critters and interesting genetics, why I have American Sable and Mini Rex, and I'm hoping to work on Opossum Rex or Astrex later on. I like knowledge! Thanks for posting here with new varieties I've never seen, though.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Good morning, Cspr.

The FA was indeed very recently shorn. This is an 11 lb rabbit which I chose as I am trying to keep size on the crosses with the smaller Satins).

Thank you for the advice, Cspr. I am definitely taking pictures as the kits grow. I am very curious if any of the ones that have sheen will also have wool to any degree since they are F2 kits.

Respectfully,
Feralty

 

[skysthelimit]

The FA should not have less crimp, FA's have more guard hairs than the other Angoras.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Thank you for the clarification, Sky.

When Disney asked me if the wool on an Angora was the same as it was on a Lionhead, I knew that the two were both wool, but I had no idea anything else about it in terms of texture because I have only dealt with Lionheads one and that was in handling them for a few hours to help a friend *laughs*...flighty little rabbits those are *grins*.

Come to think of it, is Lionhead wool any different, texture-wise, than Angora wool?

Back to the type portion of this genetics project...right now, I am trying to figure out if my bad shoulder issue is coming from the buck's side or the doe's side of the original stock (the FA and Satin) because I have had about 5 different people (2 judges included) tell me that neither have the shoulder issues. Thankfully, both breeders have agreed to let me come take a look at their stock and they are trying to help me figure out where this is coming from as well. I just want to get this corrected sooner rather than later.

Thank you all for your advice and input!

Respectfully,
Feralty

 

[skysthelimit]

I don't believe it is very different, if any.

The shoulder thing, good shoulder is actually recessive. It's a hard thing to get, and harder to keep, it's the exception and not the norm. I have a serious shoulder problem withe the Rex, and I can't really breed for it, it has to be in the genetics of my stock, or something that's added then culled for. I have two GC Rex does, both Otters, and although I want to purify my color lines, I need their genes to fix the long, low shoulders. And once I do, no matter what, I can never keep anything with long, low shoulders, or it will start the cycle over again.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Sky, can you show me an example of "good" shoulders vs. "bad" shoulders. Part of what I am not sure about is whether my crosses shoulder have these shoulders because of the breeds used for the cross or it is just an artifact of the genetics on the doe and/or buck's side.

It always seems that French Angoras are far less compact than their commercial type would suggest, and it seems that most Satin Angoras that I have seen are always long and low in the shoulders without exception. I am not sure if that is normal for the breed or just something that has been neglected to such an extent that it is accepted as "normal"...and all of this may be dependent on the area of the country that I am in and have been in (the Southern U.S.)

Respectfully,
Feralty

 

[skysthelimit]

Compact and commercial are not necessarily the same, depending on how you are using the term. MR are compact, JW are compact,shorter in body length than commercial. Rex is commercial, and should not be as compact as Mini Rex. Angoras are longer in body than the JW compact counterparts.

In a shoulder, you want a gentle rise from the top of the neck, at the base of the ears to the highest point, with no dips or steep angles. The shoulder is wide, like the description "meat brick" implies as square from shoulder points to hips as you can get it.

The FA should pretty much look like a meat brick with wool, and have the same growth rate. SA are problematic, one being they are more rare than EA and FA, so less developed. They are being crossed with FA to improve body type. But being a less popular breed, like Rex, Angoras are not uniform in quality. Sometimes scarcity means lower quality, sometimes higher.

 

[feraltydreaming]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I just wanted to let everyone know that I have two updated pictures of the FA x Satin F2 litter up for those who are interested in what F2 litters of this crossing may look like.

The two pictures are in my album and titled "Hansa Kits - 15 days old"

Respectfully,
Feralty