Sable Pearl?

[paper_crane2]

What is the genetic code for a sable pearl angora?

What about a lilac pearl?

 

[Dood]

I am curious as well

Breed specific colour names are a PITA but I would think that ...

Sable Pearl = aa B_ cchl_ D_ E_

Lilac Pearl = aa bb cchl_ dd E_


Please correct me if I am wrong

 

[skysthelimit]

aaB-cchl_ddE- for sable pearl (commonly called a smoke pearl), since pearl is a dilute.

 

[Dood]

aaB-cchl_ddE-

This cannot be right as on this thread - another-color-question-t17007.html - she bred the 'sable pearl' to a broken blue and got black tort :shock:

 

[paper_crane2]

Maybe the mom wasn't actually a sable pearl? The breeder wasn't really sure on any of the colors, and told be she didn't understand the genetics part of it at all.

 

[skysthelimit]

That is possible, Angora colors are sometimes hard to distinguish because of the wool.

I assumed you meant Smoked Pearl, because it's referred to as Black Pearl (aa B_ cchd_ D_ ee) on several sites, instead of Sable Pearl.<br /><br />__________ Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:57 am __________<br /><br />Oh, I see it.

Talk about an obscure color. And you say Rex colors are confusing. I can see breeders getting confused with this pair, a very dark seal like sable could be confused with black. http://www.classactangoras.com/colors-and-genetics.html

 

[Dood]

I carumba what a mess! :groooan:

The site Skysthelimit posted has most of the pearls as non-extension (the exception is Smoke pearl :x ) so basically the 'Pearls' in angora breeds translates, somewhat, into the 'Points' in other breeds.

sable pearl(angora) = Sable point - aa B_ cchl_ D_ ee
blue pearl (angora) = Blue/smoke point - aa B_ cchl_ dd ee

BUT like in other breeds smoke pearl IS full extension - aa B_ cchl_ dd E_

Talk about confusing!!!

 

[skysthelimit]

I carumba what a mess! :groooan:

The site Skysthelimit posted has most of the pearls as non-extension (the exception is Smoke pearl :x ) so basically the 'Pearls' in angora breeds translates, somewhat, into the 'Points' in other breeds.

sable pearl(angora) = Sable point - aa B_ cchl_ D_ ee
blue pearl (angora) = Blue/smoke point - aa B_ cchl_ dd ee

BUT like in other breeds smoke pearl IS full extension - aa B_ cchl_ dd E_

Talk about confusing!!!

Seriously!

And sometimes Sables are so dark they are hard to tell from Seals, and Seals are so dark they are hard to tell from Blacks, especially on Angoras that have the color only really on their noses. This could be a serious mess.

On another post, we can't even decide what's blue and what's black...

I am sticking with the same colors I breed in Rex, just to be safe, thought I have a himi Angora doe, who was bred to a blue :shock:

 

[starlighthill]

Hi, I just ducked in to have a look around and see that my rabbits were being discussed. I sold the bunnies to paper_crane2. She's right that I'm not familiar with or interested in the genetic codes for colors. The rabbits I was having difficulty discerning color on were the black, seal/sable bunnies. We had to take them out into the sun and look closely.
The dam of the black tort in question is, to the best of my knowledge, a sable pearl. When I first got Lucy, the woman I bought her from just referred to her as a white rabbit. I didn't know what color she was since I was unfamiliar with French angora colors. She reminded me of a himi except her eyes were brown. I took a picture of her and sent it to a knowledgeable breeder who said she is a sable pearl. Then I located her breeder and she sent me a picture of Lucy's mom and info on her sire. Her dam was a sable pearl & her sire a tort. Early last year, I bought a copy of the National Rabbit Breeder's Club Guidebook and was able to read about the color for further verification. She fits the standard for a sable pearl right down to her colored toenails
I'm new to French Angoras and color seems to be a source of fascination and sometimes conflicting ideas. Is there another color that is mistaken for sable pearl. Maybe, you can look at the pictures and make a determination.
Here is Lucy building a nest.

[album]2513[/album]

Here are a few of her sable pearl offspring.

[album]2514[/album]

 

[Dood]

The colour of the rabbit isn't the problem but the different names people use to describe a certain colour that gets confusing

I like to use "wild type" rabbits as an example - genetically they are identical A_ B_ C_ D_ E_

BUT

Black agouti, chestnut, castor, copper are all used to describe this one genotype depending on what part of the world you live in or the breed you're talking about or how many modifiers it inherited :wr_wall:

The term "Pearl" is only used in Angoras(other than smoke pearl which for some bizarre reason is used to describe blue sable in other breeds :shock: ) and some websites call dark shaded angoras pearl, some only the light shaded angoras, some the shaded and full extension and some the shaded and non-extension :shrug:

I guess it doesn't "really" matter as long as the wool is of good quality

The colour of the rabbits in the pictures you posted would be called sable point in other breeds = aa B_ cchl_ D_ ee

 

[starlighthill]

The part of this thread I was responding to was the part that called into question whether or not Lucy is a sable pearl. I gathered from your previous post that some color information I gave to paper_crane2 was not correct because breeding a sable pearl to a broken blue should not produce a black tort. The buck Lucy was bred to was a broken blue *tort*. Lucy's sire is a tort. Maybe that's the info that was missed. :idea:

 

[Dood]

sable pearl to a broken blue should not produce a black tort

It's totally possible to get a black tort from a sable pearl/point and a broken blue. Lucy is definitely a SABLE (hence she is black based) pearl/point

But a smoke/blue pearl and a broken blue will only produce blue varieties of kits (ie. blue torts)

 

[starlighthill]

The only reason I posted here was for clarification. In the course of the previous conversation, paper_crane2 appeared to doubt that I'd given her the correct color of the dam and that, perhaps, she isn't a sable pearl. I thought is was important to show that she is as I stated, especially since paper_crane2 now has a litter from her daughter. For breeders trying to produce or not produce certain colors, that information is important.

 

[skysthelimit]

The only reason I posted here was for clarification. In the course of the previous conversation, paper_crane2 appeared to doubt that I'd given her the correct color of the dam and that, perhaps, she isn't a sable pearl. I thought is was important to show that she is as I stated, especially since paper_crane2 now has a litter from her daughter. For breeders trying to produce or not produce certain colors, that information is important.

Totally understand. Sometime when people are talking to people who aren't totally sure about what color a rabbit is, especially without a picture, and having a less common color, they get questioned in a way that makes the person doubt the correctness of the info they gave.
( Maybe they heard it wrong, didn't understand, or explained it wrong). We just talk things through until we are all on the same page.

 

[starlighthill]

Precisely, Skysthelimit. Thanks for understanding

 

[akane]

Not to add to the confusion but for the hell of it I pulled out my SOP. It lists under pearl the colors of sable, black, blue, chocolate, and lilac points shading rapidly to a light body color. White undercolor. Sable, black, and chocolate to have brown eyes and blue and lilac to have blue-grey.

What is sable pearl if there is a black pearl? Is it even a genotype difference or just the phenotype? Rabbit genotypes tend to be well documented so unlike horses that still follow a lot of phenotype descriptions when registering rabbits are usually all a different genotype. There is also a smoke pearl listed and it's not one of the pearl colors but the typical blue sable. Sable, seal, and smoke pearl sound like common representations of that color name.

 

[skysthelimit]

Black pearl is the chin dark chd, gene, sable pearl is the chin light shaded gene chl.

Black pearl
Brown eyes. Black face/legs/feet/tail shading rapidly to pearl or very light body wool, undercolor white. Colored toenails.
I think about it like a black Angora, with a black face, but instead of the body color fading out to a gray like a black would, it fades out to a pearl or a light gray like a chin pearl/gray color.

Sable pearl
Brown eyes. Sepia or sable face/legs/feet/tail shading rapidly to pearl or very light bodywool, undercolor white. Colored toenails. This is a non extension, as opposed to a usual E Sable. I would call it a Sable point, since that color distinction does not exist in Angora.

 

[akane]

My sables and sable points are black pointed in ND, MR, and american sable breeds. The american sables are particularly dark like the basic sable and seal angoras are said to be. You can't tell most seals from most blacks without very good light and waiting until they have their mature coat.

 

[skysthelimit]

Because of the wool, and they way it loses pigment as it gets longer, Seals in the wooled breeds are pretty easy to tell from blacks.
The Seal wool fades to sepia and the black wool fades to silver. I have a JW litter of 3, two siamese sable and 1 black. Last litter was Seal, sable marten. Both the Siamese Sable and the Seals have silvered coats when they are are younger, then they get fluffy and a dark sepia. By 8-12 weeks, ir as the wool got longer, the fading let me know what I have.

Wooled is much easier. Now the Seal Rex is in the growout colony with the black buck, and I have to be over them to tell who's who, but I noticed yesterday the seal has whiter ears than the black.