Questions on expanding

[Her Farmstead Rabbitry]

Tomorrow I am driving an hour away to purchase 16 rabbit cages. The cages are 4 cages that are 4 bays each. (Eeek, I'm so excited) So I have attached the listing for the cages. I have also attached a layout of where the different ages/genders will go and a drawing of what the set up will look like. And a drawing of a stand I will make to hang the hutches. I will make two stands. (I'm really sorry if it messes up, I have never attached anything on here before!) I have a 5 hole hutch and a tractor. My goal is to sell breeding stock and meat. The total cost of the stands and the cages would be $560. I have 3 working does and 2 working bucks. Rabbit Cages

My Questions
#1- Is it worth it to build a roof on the middle walk way?
#2- How should I do the automatic water system?
#3- I am thinking of adding another breed (or 2 lol) . Which one should I add and why?
#4- Is $560 too expensive for a 16 cage expansion?
Just throw your opinions or improvements at me

The idea is that the stand would hang the cages and there would be a 5 foot walkway in the middle so I don't get rained on. There would be 2 stands butting against each other.

 

[eco2pia]

In Seattle, the rain roof is soooo worth it. I wasn't going to build one and I am so grateful that I was talked into doing it. I don't know much about NC weather, but ask yourself: when I am sick and have the flu and rabbits must be fed, will I be glad of the roof? will mud happen under the cages/in the path without it? do I need it for shade in the summer? Remember to give yourself space for things like wheelbarrows. The length of a rake handle. Stuff like that!

Also, if you build it tall, you can catch rainwater for an auto water system. I put a trio of 55g barrels on a stand like a mini water tower. the thing to remember is that down is easy but up won't work without power, so the bottom of your cages is the bottom of your water catchment, unless you get fancy with a solar pump and float--I am not that fancy yet.

My auto water system is just gutters to the barrels which feed lines connected to crocks mounted on the cages. the rabbits push the button in the crock when they drink and it refills. It works without my attention about 320 days out of the year. In our dry summers I sometimes have to refill the barrels (mostly because I also water the ducks and chickens out of the same barrels) and in the winter I have a few days where everything is frozen and I have to hand water in metal crocks/dog dishes.

 

[Her Farmstead Rabbitry]

In Seattle, the rain roof is soooo worth it. I wasn't going to build one and I am so grateful that I was talked into doing it. I don't know much about NC weather, but ask yourself: when I am sick and have the flu and rabbits must be fed, will I be glad of the roof? will mud happen under the cages/in the path without it? do I need it for shade in the summer? Remember to give yourself space for things like wheelbarrows. The length of a rake handle. Stuff like that!

Also, if you build it tall, you can catch rainwater for an auto water system. I put a trio of 55g barrels on a stand like a mini water tower. the thing to remember is that down is easy but up won't work without power, so the bottom of your cages is the bottom of your water catchment, unless you get fancy with a solar pump and float--I am not that fancy yet.

My auto water system is just gutters to the barrels which feed lines connected to crocks mounted on the cages. the rabbits push the button in the crock when they drink and it refills. It works without my attention about 320 days out of the year. In our dry summers I sometimes have to refill the barrels (mostly because I also water the ducks and chickens out of the same barrels) and in the winter I have a few days where everything is frozen and I have to hand water in metal crocks/dog dishes.

Thanks for the input. I hadn't thought of catching rain water. I think it would be really handy especially in the coming spring. I am definitely leaning towards a rain roof.

 

[Alaska Satin]

In Seattle, the rain roof is soooo worth it. I wasn't going to build one and I am so grateful that I was talked into doing it. I don't know much about NC weather, but ask yourself: when I am sick and have the flu and rabbits must be fed, will I be glad of the roof? will mud happen under the cages/in the path without it? do I need it for shade in the summer? Remember to give yourself space for things like wheelbarrows. The length of a rake handle. Stuff like that!

Also, if you build it tall, you can catch rainwater for an auto water system. I put a trio of 55g barrels on a stand like a mini water tower. the thing to remember is that down is easy but up won't work without power, so the bottom of your cages is the bottom of your water catchment, unless you get fancy with a solar pump and float--I am not that fancy yet.

My auto water system is just gutters to the barrels which feed lines connected to crocks mounted on the cages. the rabbits push the button in the crock when they drink and it refills. It works without my attention about 320 days out of the year. In our dry summers I sometimes have to refill the barrels (mostly because I also water the ducks and chickens out of the same barrels) and in the winter I have a few days where everything is frozen and I have to hand water in metal crocks/dog dishes.

This is one of the most outstanding responses I've ever seen!

I couldn't agree more with the roof. The more pleasant/less miserable it is to be near the rabbits, the more time you'll want to spend with them. Where I live, we not only have significant amounts of rain but also lots of snow, and a roof (and lights - we have a long dark) has made it S-O-O-O much nicer to do rabbit chores!

With so much of my year in the freezing zone, I can't use an automatic system without significant expense , but catching or at least diverting rainwater away from the rabbitry is pretty important. A key to keeping flies and smell down (and again, keeping it pleasant to walk around) is to keep things dry under the cages. Not only would the roof help with that, but a catchment system would too. I think @eco2pia has an enviable system. If you don't catch the rainwater, be sure to think about angling the roof and having gutters so that the water is directed away from the rabbitry. We had to dig small channels to keep water from soaking under the cages in our last place.

I don't know about NC, but $560 for a 16 hole addition sounds pretty good to me. Just buying the lumber for the stands would get to or pass that amount here. And most of the work is already done, so if you value your time, there's that.

As to adding another breed... if you can resist the temptation, I'll be impressed. Rabbit math, ya know? I am biased and love my Satins, but Champagne D'Argents, Californians, American Sables, American Chinchillas, Silver Martens, and Rex are tops on my list, too. (Lots of Silver Fox for meat around these days, too, but I'm not partial to their coat type. I like sleek. ) Satins and Rex, and to a lesser degree Silver Martens, will give you the most color variety, as Champagnes, Cals, Sable and Chins are each a single color. That can be advantageous, though, if you're raising rabbits to sell to 4H or FFAers for meat pens.

 

[Her Farmstead Rabbitry]

This is one of the most outstanding responses I've ever seen!

I couldn't agree more with the roof. The more pleasant/less miserable it is to be near the rabbits, the more time you'll want to spend with them. Where I live, we not only have significant amounts of rain but also lots of snow, and a roof (and lights - we have a long dark) has made it S-O-O-O much nicer to do rabbit chores!

With so much of my year in the freezing zone, I can't use an automatic system without significant expense , but catching or at least diverting rainwater away from the rabbitry is pretty important. A key to keeping flies and smell down (and again, keeping it pleasant to walk around) is to keep things dry under the cages. Not only would the roof help with that, but a catchment system would too. I think @eco2pia has an enviable system. If you don't catch the rainwater, be sure to think about angling the roof and having gutters so that the water is directed away from the rabbitry. We had to dig small channels to keep water from soaking under the cages in our last place.

I don't know about NC, but $560 for a 16 hole addition sounds pretty good to me. Just buying the lumber for the stands would get to or pass that amount here. And most of the work is already done, so if you value your time, there's that.

As to adding another breed... if you can resist the temptation, I'll be impressed. Rabbit math, ya know? I am biased and love my Satins, but Champagne D'Argents, Californians, American Sables, American Chinchillas, Silver Martens, and Rex are tops on my list, too. (Lots of Silver Fox for meat around these days, too, but I'm not partial to their coat type. I like sleek. ) Satins and Rex, and to a lesser degree Silver Martens, will give you the most color variety, as Champagnes, Cals, Sable and Chins are each a single color. That can be advantageous, though, if you're raising rabbits to sell to 4H or FFAers for meat pens.

Thank you, I am not a huge fan of one color breeds, I like a little surprise so it doesn't get boring. Although I do like Silver fox ( creme/ champange d argent. There are not many satins or cremes or champages around here, so if I could get some do you think I would have a hard time selling them?

 

[ohiogoatgirl]

If you're breeding you'll make more progress if you stick to one or two breeds.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you, I am not a huge fan of one color breeds, I like a little surprise so it doesn't get boring. Although I do like Silver fox ( creme/ champange d argent. There are not many satins or cremes or champages around here, so if I could get some do you think I would have a hard time selling them?

I wouldn't know how to predict sales opportunities in your area. Sometimes a novelty sells well for a while, but then interest peters out when it's no longer a novelty; other times, the new thing has real merits, and has staying power as the word gets out. But I can tell you that if you get a reputation for breeding high-quality rabbits of any breed, people will probably start to seek you out. ("Quality" includes meat type, growth rates, mothering abilities, health and temperament. Keeping pedigrees is another plus, but it's not critical to get pedigreed stock.) Most folks looking for meat rabbits usually start out wanting Cals or NZs, but if I can get some of our Satins into their hands, they usually come around. Not only is Satin fur something you have to see and feel to believe, but our Satins are both gentle and competitive (i.e. very good meat type). It's a combination a lot of people come to appreciate.

So my first suggestion would be to go with whichever breed you find has the highest quality meat characteristics (but don't forget temperament).

I'm afraid that will probably rule out Creme D'Argents. There are not many people breeding them and in my experience they do not tend to be at all competitive in terms of type. My daughter and I spent a fair amount of time looking around with the thought of bringing some up here to AK, but there were none I was willing to spend any money on (and the breeders wanted a lot of money). We decided we'd make some ourselves out of Champagnes, which are more common and as a result have much better type. Champagnes still are not winning a ton of Best in Shows, but IMO they're a much better meat prospect than the Cremes. Many of our Champagnes have tremendous growth rates as well. They do vary a lot more than our Satins in that regard, but I've been breeding the Satins with pretty tight criteria for a long time.

Satin (12 varieties) and Rex (16) offer the most recognized colors in the meat breeds, which can be helpful in sales. NZs are recognized in 5 varieties, but some of those don't play well together (red and blue, for instance).

Another consideration is choosing a breed that is compatible with/complementary to what you are already working with. I don't know which breed you have currently, but if your line has a weak spot (shoulders, loin, depth, size, etc) you might choose a breed that offers some improvement there. I have done a bit of crossbreeding to improve several breeds (Cals x Satins, Satins x Champagnes, and Polish x Mini Satins). It only takes 3-4 generations to get back to pedigreed rabbits. Satin coats and Champagne silvering are mutations that are fairly easy to recover, but I have found that in outcrossing Rex, it takes a lot longer to recover a good quality rex coat.

In adding another breed, you'll end up with more experience with different breeds and colors, and a wider base of rabbit knowledge. However many breeds you have, the main thing is to cull hard for the characteristics you want, because you get what you breed.

 

[Her Farmstead Rabbitry]

I wouldn't know how to predict sales opportunities in your area. Sometimes a novelty sells well for a while, but then interest peters out when it's no longer a novelty; other times, the new thing has real merits, and has staying power as the word gets out. But I can tell you that if you get a reputation for breeding high-quality rabbits of any breed, people will probably start to seek you out. ("Quality" includes meat type, growth rates, mothering abilities, health and temperament. Keeping pedigrees is another plus, but it's not critical to get pedigreed stock.) Most folks looking for meat rabbits usually start out wanting Cals or NZs, but if I can get some of our Satins into their hands, they usually come around. Not only is Satin fur something you have to see and feel to believe, but our Satins are both gentle and competitive (i.e. very good meat type). It's a combination a lot of people come to appreciate.

So my first suggestion would be to go with whichever breed you find has the highest quality meat characteristics (but don't forget temperament).

I'm afraid that will probably rule out Creme D'Argents. There are not many people breeding them and in my experience they do not tend to be at all competitive in terms of type. My daughter and I spent a fair amount of time looking around with the thought of bringing some up here to AK, but there were none I was willing to spend any money on (and the breeders wanted a lot of money). We decided we'd make some ourselves out of Champagnes, which are more common and as a result have much better type. Champagnes still are not winning a ton of Best in Shows, but IMO they're a much better meat prospect than the Cremes. Many of our Champagnes have tremendous growth rates as well. They do vary a lot more than our Satins in that regard, but I've been breeding the Satins with pretty tight criteria for a long time.

Satin (12 varieties) and Rex (16) offer the most recognized colors in the meat breeds, which can be helpful in sales. NZs are recognized in 5 varieties, but some of those don't play well together (red and blue, for instance).

Another consideration is choosing a breed that is compatible with/complementary to what you are already working with. I don't know which breed you have currently, but if your line has a weak spot (shoulders, loin, depth, size, etc) you might choose a breed that offers some improvement there. I have done a bit of crossbreeding to improve several breeds (Cals x Satins, Satins x Champagnes, and Polish x Mini Satins). It only takes 3-4 generations to get back to pedigreed rabbits. Satin coats and Champagne silvering are mutations that are fairly easy to recover, but I have found that in outcrossing Rex, it takes a lot longer to recover a good quality rex coat.

In adding another breed, you'll end up with more experience with different breeds and colors, and a wider base of rabbit knowledge. However many breeds you have, the main thing is to cull hard for the characteristics you want, because you get what you breed.

I got to say this is also one of the most outstanding posts!. I am thinking satins or a larger lop. Did you end up making the cremes?

 

[Alaska Satin]

I got to say this is also one of the most outstanding posts!. I am thinking satins or a larger lop. Did you end up making the cremes?

Glad it was helpful!

Of course I think Satins are wonderful, but as I've mentioned elsewhere, some judges call them "satans," so pay attention to the temperament of any you consider buying. It seems to be a hazard in many of the meat breeds because breeders often select for characteristics other than temperament. Whatever breed you choose, I'd suggest you cull hard for temperament if you want to build a good brood stock business

I absolutely love French Lops, and raised them for a while when I was younger, but they are massive (the French SOP has a minimum of 11lbs for bucks, 11.5lbs for does, and no upper weight limit) with very heavy bone. They grow more slowly than a typical meat breed, and eat about like you'd expect...think small horse. I wish I could talk myself into them, but I can't afford them, either terms of space or feed!

English Lops have medium bone, and a semi-arch breed can be a good meat rabbit, but a friend who raises them has to work at keeping their ears out of trouble. In NC you probably won't have issues with them freezing like we do, but the ears seem to get in the way and are just a little more maintenance.

Mini Lops actually would be my choice of the lops as a meat breed. At 4.5 -6.5 lbs they'd qualify as a small meat rabbit, similar to a Florida White, and the good ones are built like a brick. Show quality Minis do have heavy bone, but honestly, that's doesn't make a gigantic difference unless you're working on mass meat production where you have to be as efficient as possible. And you can find Minis with lighter bone; they won't do well on the show table, but they also shouldn't have any health issues related to their frame not being able to support their weight, like the French would.

The Cremes are in progress. It's going to take at least three generations because I have to replace self black with non-extension agouti, and get them back to homozygous for silvering. The red NZ buck I was going to use went away, so I'm using my Satins, which will throw a wrench in due to the satinized coats that will probably pop up down the line. However, the first generation is looking pretty nice. Here's Hot Cross Bun:

I was pleased to see that even though his silvering is not quite up to the Champagne SOP, it is still extensive even in the heterozygous state. This photo was taken when he was about 14 weeks old, so his color has continued to develop, but I don't think his head is ever going to look correct. Unfortunately I didn't get any chestnuts, which is what I need to get orange. Like I said, it's going to take at least 3 generations, but this buck's type is already better than his Champagne sire's, and light years better than any Creme I've seen. He also had a great growth profile, passing 5lbs by 8 weeks.