Problem with hind end or leg? Wry neck? Dangerous disease!

[Stormy]

Well I just stumbled upon this when I was looking for dosage for worms. Encephalitozoon cuniculi is a protozoa which is found in the environment. It can cause a leg to go weak, or a whole back end of a rabbit to become paralyzed. As I dug more and more into it, apparently many cases of supposed physical back injury have turned out to be this protozoan which attacks the nervous system.
Now for the bad news. One of my does has been dragging a leg around for months - gets better, gets worse off and on. We love her anyways. But some youngsters in our colony pen are now a little big lame with the back legs. I also butchered out 2 who just had back end problems and I was puzzled how they hurt themselves. And I have 3 more who are now a little bit lame. Can you say terror?? I have never heard of this disease!!
And this after I'm giving them all treatment for syphilus/vent disease infections!!

Even worse - this protozoan IS contagious to "immuno-deficient humans". I heard that before. I caught the respiratory bug my rabbits had a couple months back, unidentified but I was under the weather for 3 weeks.

I'm starting to think either raising rabbits is not such a good idea, or maybe pasture-raising them sucks. Here I am trying to have happy healthy rabbits that frolic in the grass under trees and I've been hit with 3 different diseases in the past few months...

some links with info and treatment:
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/treatment.shtml
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/ ... rabbit.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/ ... hamine.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Cuniculi

---
Edits: Thankfully reread my post and noticed I said I was GIVING them the syphilus infections!! ACK!! I meant treatments for it!!

 

[ZRabbits]

Sorry to hear you are having so many problems with your rabbits. Knock on wood, only one case of ear mites and an inner ear infection here. But when going through them, read all about all the different various diseases rabbits can get. Kind of scary.

Hoping things turn around for you and your rabbits.

Karen

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Well I just stumbled upon this when I was looking for dosage for worms. Encephalitozoon cuniculi is a protozoa which is found in the environment. It can cause a leg to go weak, or a whole back end of a rabbit to become paralyzed. As I dug more and more into it, apparently many cases of supposed physical back injury have turned out to be this protozoan which attacks the nervous system.
Now for the bad news. One of my does has been dragging a leg around for months - gets better, gets worse off and on. We love her anyways. But some youngsters in our colony pen are now a little big lame with the back legs. I also butchered out 2 who just had back end problems and I was puzzled how they hurt themselves. And I have 3 more who are now a little bit lame. Can you say terror?? WT?? I have never heard of this disease!!
And this after I'm giving them all syphilus/vent disease infections!!

Even worse - this protozoan IS contagious to "immuno-deficient humans". I heard that before. I caught the respiratory bug my rabbits had a couple months back, unidentified but I was under the weather for 3 weeks.

I'm starting to think either raising rabbits is not such a good idea, or maybe pasture-raising them sucks. Here I am trying to have happy healthy rabbits that frolic in the grass under trees and I've been hit with 3 different diseases in the past few months...

some links with info and treatment:
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/treatment.shtml
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/ ... rabbit.htm
http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Neurology/ ... hamine.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_Cuniculi

Check out Barbi Brown's website for info on treating E. cuniculi...

http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/ecuniculi.htm

 

[Secuono]

I'm having a hard time with ear mites, since I cannot spray chemicals on my entire yard...
Breeding for stronger immune systems should help with the protozoans, no?

 

[Stormy]

Check out Barbi Brown's website for info on treating E. cuniculi...

http://www.barbibrownsbunnies.com/ecuniculi.htm

Thanks OneAcre! Lots of info packed in there - can't believe I didn't check there first since I know her to be a wealth of information. I also just learned by reading that link about "darting eye" and remember one of my youngsters suffering a tilted head and darting eyes - he cleared up after a day so I didn't put him down, thinking he got attacked by the buck. (they were still small enough to squeeze over into his pen) Which of course didn't make too much sense as my buck had never attacked any babies. So this has been going on for sometime and I just thought they were experiencing mishaps out in the field or in their multi-leveled pen, thinking wow these rabbits sure don't know how to get around without hurting themselves!! who knew!! I am going to proceed with treating that colony group since I just narrowed it down to 5 rabbits. The offspring bucks who were removed quite some time ago do not show any signs.

I am now thinking I do not want to do another pasture colony set up for my new Hotot and Beveren and Harlequin (2 each!) bunnies I just got in. I would be so sad if my potential "show bunnies" got ill too.<br /><br />__________ Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:22 am __________<br /><br />

I'm having a hard time with ear mites, since I cannot spray chemicals on my entire yard...
Breeding for stronger immune systems should help with the protozoans, no?

That too - you have a good point. I kept one of my runts for my breeding project as he got himself through light symptoms of a respiratory/eye illness, made it through abcesses with some light treatment, pulled out bot fly larvae, and the guy just wants back out on that pasture! Small but determined! Since I'm aiming to eventually make blue Belgian Hare stock he is already so much sturdier than his father - who needed quite a bit of medicating to get through his illness.

As for the American Blue with the bad leg - and now I suspect, the daughters with bad legs might also be hers? I do not know because both does were un-planned pregnancies and gave birth in the same box. This is back when I let my buck roam the property, and learned he can scale fences if he wanted to! I'm afraid I didn't select for hind end issues - one of the girls has a little limp. And just butchered all my remaining options yesterday to reduce number needing treatments... sigh. I think I may just treat all 5 to be on the safe side.

I learned on Barbi's site that does who wet their nest box litter are more likely to pass it on. Yuk. I had some wet nestboxes in the past!

The non-ill doe who currently has a litter of kits does not seem to have such a wet box, I will check again today.

We love the girl with the bad leg, so I am going to try a round of treatment with Baycox,for protozoa.

Back to your point - and its a good one - that is exactly what I may need to be doing if I want to pasture raise - keeping only the ones that seem the most robust given their conditions of being at pasture exposed to who knows what. I am also considering that perhaps the American Blues, being an endangered breed, may be a little too inbred to be real sturdy. The black & tan Belgian Hare, the father of the youngsters, is also perhaps inbred and not the most sturdy. Guess I have an opportunity here to really weed out who is strong genetics!

Still not so sure I want to expose my new fancy rabbits from convention to whatever is on my grass!

Good luck with your mite problem - that must be such a drag. I wonder if you can really select for that because its a bug - not a immune system problem fighting illness... do you really have some that get it and some that don't?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Unfortunately, you really do need to weigh the pros and cons of pasture or colony raising versus cage raising. While some people have great success with a more natural approach, it doesn't work for everyone. I personally cage raise my rabbits and problems still crop up, but overall my herd has been healthy.

I would like to experiment with other methods at some point myself, and I did have a runout pen set up for exercise, but I stopped using it for fear that I would spread disease or parasites between rabbits since the bedding was not changed between groups. For now I just gather greens in season and feed them in their cages.

MaggieJ colony raises, but she feeds many weeds that act as natural wormers and has had a closed herd for years.

Over time you could develop a herd that is resistant to the pathogens in your area, but it will require ruthless culling of any animals that become ill. If you decide to treat them for their illnesses you should still cull those that recover, and keep only those that have shown no symptoms for breeding. This may mean that you are keeping stock that is structurally inferior to the ones that are culled for illness (or not), but I believe overall health is more important.

 

[Stormy]

Yes, MamaSheepDog - I set up a colony pen after reading all the inspiring posts on this forum and discovering how to do it. Not one of them mentioned the myriad diseases that can be picked up off pasture. Maybe most people are doing this in their backyards instead of actual pasture where wild animals hang out. I am learning the hard way

I am not willing to cull that hard - not making meat mutts. I have 4 critical breeds on the endangered list. I will certainly select for hardiness but cannot stop there when there are other factors to consider.

I am planning to order a very large cage 10'x2.5' and put my new colony does in there and see how that works out. I am so bummed not to be putting them on the ground. I will have to see if that size cage is big enough once they have a litter in there too. Maybe turn it into a double-decker, so it'd be that big x 2...

I suppose those who set up colonies in barns and fixed structures may also avoid the problems I'm facing. But for me I prefer to avoid having to clean out pens and would rather roll them around...

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Maybe you could still have a "retirement colony" for your favorite breeders to live out their last days.

I am so bummed not to be putting them on the ground.

Perhaps you could grow some forage for them in large litter pans or cement mixing tubs so they can still have green growing things under their feet once in a while.

 

[garden lady]

Unfortunately, you really do need to weigh the pros and cons of pasture or colony raising versus cage raising. While some people have great success with a more natural approach, it doesn't work for everyone.

I have been trying to figure out what is natural for domestic rabbits. Do we have rabbits living in tunnels in the United States? Are there such a thing anywhere of say Rex rabbits living in the wild or any of the other breeds? I know rabbits dig tunnels, but dogs will dig too. There are mountain goats, but goats that are on farms, can they live in the wild without guard dogs or humans? Horses can live wild.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

There are feral colonies of domestic rabbits in some areas. I knew of a college campus in So. Cal where people dumped rabbits and there was a huge population. I don't know if they are still there, since that was twenty years ago. These wild colonies cause lots of damage not only to vegetation, but also to structures because they like to tunnel under buildings which undermines the foundations.

I'm sure domestic goats could survive living wild. A friend of mine lost her Nigerian dwarf dairy goat last year, and we were sure she had been eaten by coyotes or a mountain lion. Over six months later, another friend rounded up their herd of cows for branding and sorting, and found the goat as a part of the herd! :lol:

Any domestic animal that lives wild is at risk of predation just as wild animals are. They may not survive as long because some of the awareness of danger has been bred out of them as well as instinctive knowledge of poisonous plants.

 

[MaggieJ]

Domestic rabbits are not indigenous to North America. They are descended from the European wild rabbit, a completely different species from any of the North American rabbits or hares.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_rabbit

Selective breeding over hundreds of years has developed the various breeds... but domestic rabbits are all the same species and can interbreed. Domestic rabbits cannot interbreed with North American wild rabbits.

Colony raising has its problems and likely works best for people who have a small rabbitry for meat. Show rabbits seem to require more care and likely do better in individual cages or a large cage like you are using, Stormy.

So why raise rabbits in a colony at all? Daily care is simplified and the rabbits do enjoy the extra space and companionship. Every so often you do have to shovel out the deep litter, but you can choose your time for that. I just feel the rabbits are happier... and that makes me happy too.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I just feel the rabbits are happier... and that makes me happy too.

And that is the main thing. I have rabbits because they make me smile everyday. I try to keep my numbers down so the work load dont get over whelm. It is a hobby.. not a chore and i like to keep it that way.

 

[Stormy]

I agree - I love spending time with them and caring for them. Although 13 rabbits on meds suddenly amped up the time and responsibility!! Spending all day today sterilizing all the cages and pens...
I also feel the colony set up leads to happier - and less testy - rabbits. They do not get to be queen of the turf, they learn to share. They do not fight when they have established their order - they lay down together in happy bunny piles. I wouldn't want it any other way. Plus they are not as needy from me since they have companionship (the bucks are needy!) BUT now need to devise a new colony set up that is not on pasture. The American Blues on pasture can stay there but my new ones will not. Even as potential "show rabbits", I plan to raise the does colony style. Because they really don't pull each other's fur out once they've worked it out.

Someone suggested growing greens in trays - I like that and will attempt.

I haven't been letting the litter get too deep but keep moving the cage, figuring it was unsanitary. Maggie do you let it pile up without health issues? I have read on some posts people just keep putting straw down until they are ready for a big clean but I thought that would lead to disease... (look at me, disease central anyways!)

 

[MaggieJ]

My rabbits are in an 8 foot square part of our shed. Our two geese and supplies are in the other half. The first year of the colony we had no issues whatsoever, but lately we have had some concerns.

When we shovel it out - about every three months or as needed - I put down a bale of pine shavings. Nice and clean. The rabbits get hay free choice and so there is some waste (hay is only about $3.50 a bale, about the same price as straw) and the rabbits distribute it fairly evenly. The shavings absorb the urine and the waste hay gives them a fairly clean surface. My rabbits do not drink a lot of water because of the natural diet, so ammonia odours are minimal. When we do shovel out, the hay, bunny berries etc. all go on the garden.

We have had minor health issues... Our matriarch doe developed an abscess in the summer of 2011. We treated her because Alice is special and because we know the circumstances that caused it... normally we would have culled. An extra buck developed an abscess that same season (he was in a cage at the time, so nothing to do with colony living) and he was culled. We also culled one fryer this summer also due to an abscess. I just don't feel that treating them is worth it in most cases... but we are talking about meat mutts, not show rabbits or heritage breeds. There may be a latent pasteurella strain in my rabbits... one reason my rabbitry is closed and I no longer sell rabbits. It is estimated that pasteurella is carried by most domestic rabbits, so since it has only surfaced on a few occasions, I am willing for the moment to deal with the possibility by culling anybunny that shows possible symptoms.

We also had a minor coccidiosis problem. Two fryers died unexpectedly this past summer and the livers were abnormal. A couple of rabbits that were butchered had livers that had a few nodules. They were not noticeably ill, but it is still not a good sign. The last two rabbits we butchered at ten months old, however, had perfect livers... so it does not seem to be a major problem.

I do believe that the natural diet with so many medicinal plants helps to control these problems in my rabbitry, even if it does not eliminate them completely.

If I had more money, I would take that 8' x 8' section and build a pen around the three sides, raising it off the floor and using floor wire so the droppings would fall through. This would give the rabbits less floor space (27.5 sq. ft. compared to 64 sq. feet) but still lots of room to hop about. But materials are expensive and we just do not have the money to spare at present.

 

[Stormy]

WOW... $3.50 a bale for hay?? where do YOU live? I pay $16/bale!! Got to find a cheaper place...

I should look more into these medicinal plants. I have seen mention of feeding the different plants in the natural feeding posts but I have NO IDEA what these plants are!! And they are pretty much eating what I have growing & available...

Why do you think the abscesses are pasteurella-caused? One of mine got an abscess from being scratched from some animal (he'd gotten loose) - is it possible they were from a scratch or bite from another rabbit? Treating him wasn't too hard for that...

I'm going to keep an eye on livers!! I do remember one time a few months ago seeing red spots on a liver. Didn't know what it meant, but didn't feed it to the cats!!

Well it sounds like a relatively low-maintenance set up, good for you. Maybe I will try it at some point too, not moving their house around, if I can come up with harvesting more natural food for them instead! Do you actually plant and tend these natural plants you feed them?

 

[MaggieJ]

I did not make the connection between the abscesses and pasteurella until MamaSheepdog posted about her buck, Floyd. I don't know for certain that pasteurella is involved. With only a small set-up, I cull any rabbit that has problems. In the case of the buck that had the abscess and who was housed in a cage well away from the colony there were also signs of respiratory distress. The only adult rabbits to have died here were the three that I brought into the rabbitry to improve my line. That suggests that there is something in my herd that infects newcomers but to which my rabbits have resistance.

Yes, hay is cheap here. I buy from a local farmer and it is good alfalfa hay. I don't think I could do a natural diet for the buns if I had to pay a lot for hay.

Liver coccidiosis leaves whitish yellow nodules on the liver. I don't know what the red spots you saw might have been.

Regarding weeds, you will find a lot of info in the Natural Feeding section. Always use botanical names for identification. We have 32 acres and I can gather what the rabbits need just by taking a little walk.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I am not willing to cull that hard - not making meat mutts. I have 4 critical breeds on the endangered list.

This may sound counter-intuitive, but with 4 critical breeds, you SHOULD be culling for and keeping/breeding ONLY the best. Flooding the gene pool with sub-par rabbits isn't going to help the breed. And, actually, people that raise "meat mutts", don't cull all that particularly hard. It is usually breeders that are actively working on the quality of their rabbits for show or other purposes that cull the hardest.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I am not willing to cull that hard - not making meat mutts. I have 4 critical breeds on the endangered list.

This may sound counter-intuitive, but with 4 critical breeds, you SHOULD be culling for and keeping/breeding ONLY the best. Flooding the gene pool with sub-par rabbits isn't going to help the breed. And, actually, people that raise "meat mutts", don't cull all that particularly hard. It is usually breeders that are actively working on the quality of their rabbits for show or other purposes that cull the hardest.

:yeahthat:

 

[a7736100]

A few days ago 3 of my rabbits may have this. The are the ones I let run around the back yard couple hours at a time each because they are pretty good in going back to their cages. All at once they each developed weak hind legs. One bad enough to fall on them. I'm keeping them in their cages to see what develops. If it doesn't get better I'll have to destroy them. I was going to butcher one of them but I won't now that he's sick. I though they might have eaten some poke berries but this sounds more likely specially when one of them have pee stains on his head.

 

[Stormy]

There is no need to put your rabbits down. This isn't uncommon for free ranging rabbits to get . Treat them per this thread. 100% curable. My rabbits treated never came down with it again. Won't truly go away on its own, will resurface.