Possible Kindling Emergency

[kukupecpec]

I came home and my mother in law was freaking out that my momma bunny, Red, is bleeding. I assumed it was just normal bleeding from kindling, today is day 31. I haven't actually witnessed her give birth before, she usually does it super early in the morning/super late at night. I check at about 10 or 11pm and nothing, then by 6 or 7am she has a litter all snuggled up in her fur mound in the box. There is usually some blood, a little around the nest and a handful of drops here and there around her hutch. Sometimes there's some on her fur around her bottom.
Today, she is obviously JUST starting kindling at around 7:30 pm. She was just bleeding when my mother in law saw her, but by the time I got outside she had a baby sitting behind her. It's earlier in the evening, and she's just sitting in the middle of the hutch rather than in the nest box having her babies right out on the wire. I feel like there is a lot of blood, but I know know if this is normal and I just only see the cleaned up after math?

I moved her from the hutch to a smaller cage to bring inside and keep an eye on her. She's seems tired, she didn't fight when I picked her up, but she did hop away just fine when she saw my hand coming at her. She looks like she might be dozing off a little, but she is still alert, getting up, sniffing things, chewing, drinking. She will get up suddenly, move around a bit, leave a puddle of blood the size of a quarter or so, then lick it (on the blanket) a whole bunch. She is breathing rapidly, and I think she MIGHT be starting to grind her teeth? I know that's a sign of pain. But I can't tell if she is just chewing, or if I'm being paranoid?
Are these things normal? Are there any warning signs I should look for? How long should it take between babies? It's been nearly 2 hours since the first one was born. It is alive and seems quite healthy, although it is smallish so I'm betting it's a litter of at least 5 as it is the same size as her kits from other litters of 5 and 7.


I can't get my picture sizes small enough, sorry - I posted on anotehr forum too and the pictures are there
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/possib ... ncy-80554/

 

[Miss M]

That does not look like a normal amount of blood to me. Yes, there will be blood, but not a lot, and it should stop pretty quickly.

From reading here and over there, it does sound like she is in pain, and like she could have a stuck kit. The licking, biting, pulling would likely be her trying to get another kit out.

Let me see if I can find the website with instructions for a stuck kit. <br /><br /> -- Thu May 15, 2014 11:59 pm -- <br /><br /> Here it is:

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-br ... kits-help/

 

[kukupecpec]

I actually saw that on another thread here with a possible stuck kit. I'm definitely comfortable trying this, but I don't know if, or for how long, I should wait? Or f I should just jump right in now? She's a very sweet girl, but she gets nervous and doesn't love being handled - although she likes a good head rub. I'm afraid to stress her out and make things worse. <br /><br /> -- Thu May 15, 2014 11:21 pm -- <br /><br /> My husband and I talked it over a little. He's not really comfortable doing anything, he just kind of sits back and is very sad. That's just him though and if I really need him he will step up. We definitely want to do whatever we can for her. She is by far our priority, dead kits is sad but losing Red would be total devastation.

I AM a little concerned about the one living kit though - I was under the impression they needed to fed right after birth, I know for sure that hasn't happened, and while mom licked him a little, she is pretty well uninterested. I'm keeping an eye on him though, he is warm and looks good. Wiggly.

 

[Zass]

They do not need fed right after birth. It can actually take up to 48 hours for her milk to come in.

 

[kukupecpec]

Oh good! That at least makes me feel more comfortable about the baby.

I submerged her back end in warm water and cleaned her up and got a better look. She loosened up alot in the water so I felt her stomach again. I'm fairly certain I feel at least two more babies, possibly 3, but I don't feel anything at all in or near her birth canal (not that I'm an expert). She was pretty comfortable just sitting in the water a bit. But when she started to put her head under to get to her vent I brought her out and back to her cage. She is going in and out of the next box, and cleaning herself a lot. I'm hoping these are all good signs of her giving it another go.

 

[MaggieJ]

Sometimes a calcium boost at kindling time helps a lot. The easiest way to do this is to offer her a TUMS antacid. Most rabbits will eat the fruit flavoured ones. If you use a different brand, be absolutely sure it is calcium based.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I wouldn't worry about the blood... some does pass quite a bit of blood while kindling, as shown in these photos:




How is she doing this morning? Did she have any more kits?

If not, you may want to give her some herbs to stimulate contractions. Some of these herbs also inhibit milk production, so be sure to cross reference their effects before using.

http://www.sisterzeus.com/Emmeno.htm

 

[kukupecpec]

I'll check if we have some TUMS, we probably do.

Those pictures look very similar to her! I'm very glad it could be normal.
She had another kit around 3am, alive, quite large, almost twice the size of the first kit. Usually her kits are all very similar in size, the only time she had a true runt like this was with a litter of 9, she had 2 that were much smaller than the rest. One was dead when I first saw the kits and the other died later that day. She LOOKS fine, up and moving and acting completely normally. She did pull both kits out of the nest around 5am, I thought she had had two more, but when I woke up better and checked the nest box it was still just the original two. She hasn't pulled any fur though, which is strange for her. She usually has quite a mountain of fuzz on her babies.

 

[Miss M]

I'm so glad she was able to get that kit out! That was probably what was causing the problem. She may still have more kits. :clover:

 

[akane]

I wouldn't call that amount of blood average but so long as it stops when all the kits are out it's probably not anything serious. Some minor damage from the birth not going perfectly. Dunno if kits have sturdy enough bodies to damage the uterus but we've had other animals cause a tear or what seems like just a scrape when they come out positioned wrong or get stuck. Only time it's been a major problem is when a foal stuck it's foot through a mare's uterus and caused a horrible infection. Small mammals do not have hooves so that much damage shouldn't be possible.

 

[kukupecpec]

She's up and feeding them and seems completely back to normal, no more bleeding either. Hopefully if she has any more in there they will come out on their own without any more trouble!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I'm glad she is doing well!

I admit I was pretty worried when I saw all of the blood on the does pictured above, and was on "death watch". But they cleaned themselves up and did just fine.

I'm not sure, but they both may have been maidens. Willow, the broken opal, had another litter just this morning and there was nowhere near the amount of blood this time.

In my experience, most does deliver with very minimal blood, but it seems that this is not that far out of the ordinary.

When you have a doe that is very bloody like that, it is even more important than usual to check the nest soon after kindling to remove any soiled bedding. The kits may be covered in blood as well, and fur and bedding will stick to them as they dry. In that case I take them into the house and rinse them with warm water, pat dry, and then place them in a warm towel. Usually by the time the last kit is bathed and the nest dealt with, they are ready to go back out to mom.

 

[kukupecpec]

She had 5 more kits! 2 were dead, but the living 5 are all doing great! Red is working really hard on her nest now and keeps shifting the babies all over. she pulled fur and nursed them all so I took the nest box out. We will keep them all inside for another day or two until I know she's done and that everyone is ok.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Poor girl, she had a hard time of it, obviously, since she delayed kindling the others.

I would put the kits in another nest or container and give her her nestbox back. It sounds like she is still setting up housekeeping, and you don't want to thwart those instincts... or leave her without box in case she has even MORE kits.

Leaving the kits with her while she is still digging and arranging things is dangerous for them, so I would only bring them to her for feeding until she settles down.

Congrats on more popples!

 

[Miss M]

I'm so glad she's having the rest of her litter, and all seems okay!

MSD's got great ideas there.

 

[kukupecpec]

I took your advice MamaSheepdog and move the kits to a different box. She pulled a bit more fur but mostly just dug in the box. She lost interest in a couple hours though. No more babies.
Out of the 5 that were birthed alive, 2 more passed =( but the other 3 are doing very well! Getting fed well, and even looking like they are growing!
Red is doing great, moved everyone back to their hutch, put the kits in their real nestbox (not the one I was using inside while we kept an eye on her), mom is happy to be back in her nice big hutch. I think she was getting restless stuck in that tiny cage.

I was wondering if this is a sign she is at the end of her productive period? Is it time to consider retiring her as a breeder? Or was this more likely just a fluke crummy pregnancy?
Our plan for any retired breeding buns is to have her spayed and either kept or rehomed as simply a sweet pet. Red would probably stay with Bugsy - I really like the idea of him having a live in friend who's spayed so there aren't any unscheduled litters, and breeding him to the production girls - but any other girls would be pets rather than rabbit-rabbit companions. This would be our first retiree though.