Please check my genetic calculations

[TerriG]

Got some new pics of the kits. My 15 year old dd took them with her cell phone while doing the afternoon chores. Some of them aren't the best, but hopefully they work.

I'm still new to this genetics thing, so please let me know if you spot something wrong.

Litter #1
Sire:
Thumper - Palomino
Aat bb Cc(chl) dd ee

Dam:
Wheezy - Agouti
A_ Bb c(chd)_ Dd Ee

Kits:
Palomino (started with 3. one died on the wire @ 3 days. One had enteritis and was culled)
A_ bb C_ dd ee

Silver Marten
at_ Bb c(chd)_ Dd Ee

Chin (enteritis-culled)
A_ Bb c(chd)_ Dd Ee Ww

Frosty (med blue eyes)
A_ Bb c(chl)_ Dd ee ww

Litter #2:
Sire:
Thumper - Palomino
Aat bb Cc(chl) dd ee

Dam:
Fern - Black Tort
aa Bb C_ Dd ee

Kits:
Fawn with pointed nose
??

Tort
aat Bb C_ D_ ee

Fawn with points
?? Bb C_ Dd ee

White'ish kit with points (eyes appear brown)
???

Litter #3:
Sire:
Shadow - Black with white flecks (like marten guard hairs)
aa Bb C_ Dd Ee

Dam:
Cookie - Agouti
A_ Bb c(chd) Dd Ee

Kits:
Agouti (2 of each picture)
A_ B_ c(chd)_ D_ E_

Fawn with pointed nose (2nd pic shows true color on ears. Not pointed)
??

 

[Dood]

Thumper - Palomino
Aat bb Cc(chl) dd ee

Does not look like a lilac fawn ("b b" and "d d") in picture so I'd say "B B" or "B b" and "D D" or "D d"

Palomino (started with 3. one died on the wire @ 3 days. One had enteritis and was culled)
A_ bb C_ dd ee

see Thumper

Until you get a chocolate and/or blue kit I would leave the B and D locus with blanks.

Wheezy - Agouti
A_ Bb c(chd)_ Dd Ee

Cookie - Agouti (and agouti kits)
A_ Bb c(chd) Dd Ee

With this c-locus genotype they would look like chinchillas and be silver with black tips.
Weezy is "C cchd" or "C ch" or "C c" since she had a chinchilla colour kit by Thumper.
Cookie and her agouti kits are "C C" or "C cchd" or "C cchl" or "C ch" or "C c"

Tort
aat Bb C_ D_ ee

this kit could be a tort otter "at a", but it looks more like a fawn "a a" to me.

Fern - Black Tort
aa Bb C_ Dd ee

Must be "C cchl" or "C ch" or "C c" because she had a shaded kit with Thumper

Fawn with pointed nose
??

I suspect the shaded gene is being partially expressed so Aa B_ Ccchl D_ ee

White'ish kit with points (eyes appear brown)
???

A shaded rabbit, sable point is my guess - aa B_ cchl_ D_ ee

Fawn with pointed nose (2nd pic shows true color on ears. Not pointed)
??

see above

 

[TerriG]

Tort
aat Bb C_ D_ ee

this kit could be a tort otter "at a", but it looks more like a fawn "a a" to me.

Fern - Black Tort
aa Bb C_ Dd ee

Must be "C cchl" or "C ch" or "C c" because she had a shaded kit with Thumper

Fawn with pointed nose
??

I suspect the shaded gene is being partially expressed so Aa B_ Ccchl D_ ee

White'ish kit with points (eyes appear brown)
???

A shaded rabbit, sable point is my guess - aa B_ cchl_ D_ ee

Fawn with pointed nose (2nd pic shows true color on ears. Not pointed)
??

see above

I think I get what you are saying about the other litters, but this one confuses me. We have deducted that Thumper is 'Aat' since he sired a Marten. So if he is 'Aat' and Fern is 'aa', how would the Tort kit be 'aa'? If he gets one from each parent, wouldn't the options be 'Aa' or 'aat'? Unless it is Wheezy that carries the 'at' and not Thumper? If Wheezy carries it then it would explain the Marten and if Thumper is 'Aa', then kits could get 'Aa' or 'aa'.

So with these genes, how do we get chins? We got one with Wheezy and Thumper, but it didn't survive. The breeder told us that if we got a Black buck and bred it to one of our Agoutis, we would get chins. I'm not sure that is correct after looking at the genetics. Maybe it is? The Agouti would give the 'A' which is dominate to 'a', B allele works, Agouti would contribute the 'c(chd)', D allele works, E allele works. There would be other options, but chin may be possible? My kids want chin pelts for some craft projects.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Just fyi...Palomino is a breed, not a color....they come in different color varieties...

Golden Palomino


Lynx Palomino


The Lynx variety may be what you are seeing that looks like shaded fawn...and that "tort" is likely a Lynx as well...

 

[TerriG]

OAF, I was aware of that. I didn't see any Lynx on the breeder's property. Only the golden. She does have a Black Satin line. I also know she bred in some other breeds for size and quality. Our buck Thumper and our doe Ruby are the straight Golden color, other than I noticed just a bit of gray on the edges of Thumper's ears.

Our buck Shadow is from her Black Satin line. He is not a Satin though. His Dam was on site and is either full or 1/2 Checkered Giant. I can't remember which the breeder told us. She looked like a Checkered Giant though (coat and size wise).

Our doe Fern came from the breeder too. When I was trying to identify her coloring, I thought she might be a Cinnamon since the breeder had the breeds that created the Cinnamon on site. I thought maybe the crossing the breeder had done had ended up with a Cinnamon. I posted her picture here and was told she was a Black Tort. I know she came from the Palomino line, but don't know much more than that.

Did you see the kit from Fern and Thumper? I love his coloring. Another kit has the same pattern, but the gray is lighter and not quite as noticeable. If he's not a Tort, then what?

 

[OneAcreFarm]

OAF, I was aware of that. I didn't see any Lynx on the breeder's property. Only the golden. She does have a Black Satin line. I also know she bred in some other breeds for size and quality. Our buck Thumper and our doe Ruby are the straight Golden color, other than I noticed just a bit of gray on the edges of Thumper's ears.

Our buck Shadow is from her Black Satin line. He is not a Satin though. His Dam was on site and is either full or 1/2 Checkered Giant. I can't remember which the breeder told us. She looked like a Checkered Giant though (coat and size wise).

Our doe Fern came from the breeder too. When I was trying to identify her coloring, I thought she might be a Cinnamon since the breeder had the breeds that created the Cinnamon on site. I thought maybe the crossing the breeder had done had ended up with a Cinnamon. I posted her picture here and was told she was a Black Tort. I know she came from the Palomino line, but don't know much more than that.

Did you see the kit from Fern and Thumper? I love his coloring. Another kit has the same pattern, but the gray is lighter and not quite as noticeable. If he's not a Tort, then what?

With all the mixing and matching, honestly, you are likely to end up with all kinds of unknowns and it will be VERY difficult for you to pinpoint genotype.

 

[TerriG]

With all the mixing and matching, honestly, you are likely to end up with all kinds of unknowns and it will be VERY difficult for you to pinpoint genotype.

Yeah, I know. I'm still trying though. Just more so that I can try to get the coats that my kids want. That's what it really comes down to.

When we got our stock, we were more concerned about body type and health. After we got started breeding, and my kids had actually felt rabbit fur, they started wanting to make stuff from the pelts. That's when I started trying to figure out their genetics. I know I won't be able to figure everything out, but if I can at least make educated guesses, I would be happy

 

[OneAcreFarm]

With all the mixing and matching, honestly, you are likely to end up with all kinds of unknowns and it will be VERY difficult for you to pinpoint genotype.

Yeah, I know. I'm still trying though. Just more so that I can try to get the coats that my kids want. That's what it really comes down to.

When we got our stock, we were more concerned about body type and health. After we got started breeding, and my kids had actually felt rabbit fur, they started wanting to make stuff from the pelts. That's when I started trying to figure out their genetics. I know I won't be able to figure everything out, but if I can at least make educated guesses, I would be happy

It will be easier for you to make guesses based on "phenotype" or what color they LOOK like than based on "genotype" what they are genetically. I would keep very good records on what colors each match produced for a bit, then go back thru and review after you have a few litters under your belt, so to speak. You will have more information to work from.

 

[Dood]

Weezy is "C cchd" or "C ch" or "C c" since she had a chinchilla colour kit by Thumper.

The chinchilla kit is A_ B_ cchd_ D_ E_ W_ B
breed Thumper to a Chinchilla ("cchd cch" or "cchd ch" or "cchd c")a Shaded ("cchl cch" or "cchl ch" or "cchl c")Californian (red eyes) ("ch ch" or "ch c")or REW ("c c")and half will be chinchilla, if not then he does not carry the chinchilla gene and it is Weezy and Fern who have it.

The breeder told us that if we got a Black buck and bred it to one of our Agoutis, we would get chins. I'm not sure that is correct after looking at the genetics. Maybe it is?

Um NO! To get chinchilla the rabbit must have the dominant agouti gene A_ and cch_ gene, which is recessive and you cannot tell if an agouti or black rabbit has these recessives just by looking at them! In fact, by breeding an "A _" agouti to an "a a" black who carry the chinchilla gene, you are just as likely to get marten or shaded rabbits if the kit comes out "at a" or "a a" instead of "A a"

I thought she might be a Cinnamon since the breeder had the breeds that created the Cinnamon on site

Cinnamon is a meat breed that only come in shades of black tortoiseshell, just like Palomino is a meat breed that only comes in shades of fawn.

Fern is 'aa',

Good point, I missed that one

But the plot thickens....I have pretty much ignored the W locus, since it is newer and rarer and I have not had experience with it. The recessive version "w w" is used within the Palomino breed to deepen the red colour.

From http://www.nockrabbits.com/wbinfo2.html

Wide Band recessive gene "w" effects an agouti or tan pattern coat by "filling in" tan pattern areas with red.

If the kit is indeed a tort otter, it could be the W locus modifiying its colour and making it look fawn since Thumper and Fern both come from Palomino stock and could carry the recessive version and the kit could be "w w".

 

[TerriG]

OAF, that's what I'm doing. We figured out that our buck Thumper is throwing cchl since he is the common denominator with the white colored kits. I just love a good challenge <br /><br />__________ Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:30 pm __________<br /><br />Dood, hmmm very interesting. I have read about the W locus, but don't really understand it. I am having a hard enough time with the C locus.

I looked up tort otter and I can see why you mentioned it. I also looked up sable points and can understand genetically why you guess that. I had looked at them, but thought they weren't the right color. Genetically it's a match though. I guess comparing the kit coloring to a senior coat doesn't work so well.

 

[Dood]

Remember, the pictures on the web are taken by dedicated breeders who know the official colour of their bunnies and want to show off their best specimens, not their culls.

Try googling "gray rabbit" in images and see what the general public considers gray, while rabbit people interested in coat colour would see blue self, chinchilla, silver, steel agouti, lilac silver martin, silver tipped smoke pearl, etc....

The word gray, or grey, isn't even a coat colour to us.

 

[TerriG]

Remember, the pictures on the web are taken by dedicated breeders who know the official colour of their bunnies and want to show off their best specimens, not their culls.

Try googling "gray rabbit" in images and see what the general public considers gray, while rabbit people interested in coat colour would see blue self, chinchilla, silver, steel agouti, lilac silver martin, silver tipped smoke pearl, etc....

The word gray, or grey, isn't even a coat colour to us.

That is true. I am trying to learn all of this. I have been taking a crash course. Before August, I had never even touched a rabbit. My dh tried to talk me into rabbits for a year before I said ok. I have added buck and doe, kindling, kits, buns, popples, nest boxes, agouti, palomino, frosty, etc to my vocabulary. Recently I added dam and sire, and am trying to remember that gray=blue in the rabbit world. It's like learning a new language.