Place your bets!!

[EnglishSpot]

The doe is a broken black with potential Himi, and that's all we know.



Pedigree for my black buck:

----------------------------------------GGS: Black
----------------------------GS: Broken Black
----------------------------------------GGD: Black
---------Sire: Black
----------------------------------------GGS: Broken Black
-----------------------------GD: Black
----------------------------------------GGD: Tortoise
Trooper, Black (sire of expected litter)
----------------------------------------GGS: Blue
-----------------------------GS: Black
----------------------------------------GGD: Broken Black
---------Dam: Broken Black
----------------------------------------GGS: Broken Black
-----------------------------GD: Lilac
----------------------------------------GGD: Black Otter


I see lots of brokens in her future, but is it possible some of the torts, blues, and lilac come out?? I'm wondering and am beginning to get into the genetics but being a noob, I'll just have to see what comes out (Rabbits LOL).


Update:
I edited this since with the hyphens since the spacing didn't come out in the post; I think a few were confused that I was posting the pregnant doe's pedi too. This is all the buck's pedi.

 

[alforddm]

I vote for about 50/50 black and broken black. It's possible you could get something else crop up as recessives can hide forever but it's not terribly likely. Your best chance would be of getting a blue or a chocolate since your dam will carry one copy of each of those, since her dam was lilac.

 

[Nyctra]

It's possible but unlikely the buck carries the recessives for dilute, chocolate, and/or tort. Paired to another black, the chance of producing those recessive colors is even slimmer.
Expect all black and broken black.

 

[JessiL]

Am I misreading the pedigree and/or forgetting basic genetics? How would a black and a lilac produce a broken (bottom of the pedigree)? Isn't the broken gene dominant to solid color?

 

[alforddm]

Am I misreading the pedigree and/or forgetting basic genetics? How would a black and a lilac produce a broken (bottom of the pedigree)? Isn't the broken gene dominant to solid color?

Good catch!

I admit I don't have much experience with rabbit colors, however, in horses and dogs we have found that white patterns can at times be very very minimal. There have been cases of completely solid or nearly solid horses testing positive for Frame (AKA Lethal White), Splashed White, and Sabino 1. All of which occur at different Loci and all follow a dominant or semi-dominant mode of inheritance. So, it might be possible for a very minimal broken rabbit. This would mean the rabbit in question would carry the gene for broken but as a result of a genetic "quirk" not itself be broken (maybe a pink toenail or something). It would also mean that such a rabbit could produce broken kits.

Such occurrences are fairly rare but do happen.

 

[Nyctra]

Except for oddball BEW sports, that's not really the case with rabbits. The broken gene just doesn't work like that. They either have it or they don't. Maybe they were just writing down the actual genetic coat color and didn't bother with writing down "broken." :?

 

[alforddm]

Except for oddball BEW sports, that's not really the case with rabbits. The broken gene just doesn't work like that.

That is what we thought in horses too...Until genetic testing proved otherwise. Probably a better example (I didn't think about it in my first post) would be Tobiano as it is a KIT gene mutation like broken in rabbits and tobiano is an "either they have it or they don't" kind of white pattern.

This is the "normal" expression for Tobiano although more white is common.

And a very minimal Tobiano.

The two white feet are all the white she has. I believe that it would be the equivalent of white toe tips in rabbits. I will admit however, that with Tobiano such a thing is very rare. Any broken rabbits with something like this are most likely culled.

Just having not written down the "broken" part is probably the best explanation.

 

[JenerationX]

Except for oddball BEW sports, that's not really the case with rabbits. The broken gene just doesn't work like that.

That is what we thought in horses too...Until genetic testing proved otherwise. Probably a better example (I didn't think about it in my first post) would be Tobiano as it is a KIT gene mutation like broken in rabbits and tobiano is an "either they have it or they don't" kind of white pattern.

This is the "normal" expression for Tobiano although more white is common.

And a very minimal Tobiano.

The two white feet are all the white she has. I believe that it would be the equivalent of white toe tips in rabbits. I will admit however, that with Tobiano such a thing is very rare. Any broken rabbits with something like this are most likely culled.

Just having not written down the "broken" part is probably the best explanation.

I love the "hidden" tobianos. I used to ride a gelding that appeared blood bay with just a little white star until he turned around and most of his tail was white. I think he got more looks than a "flashy" tobiano.

 

[EnglishSpot]

Thanks for the replies everyone!!

Both parents of the Black and the Lilac have broken parents--couldn't that have quietly submerged it for a generation or so? (like the minimal Tobiano)

I know for a fact that my buck has a broken black brother and sister, but he's solid black, nary a toenail discolored. If broken were dominant, wouldn't he have been broken too?

 

[Dood]

Broken cannot hide (except in white rabbits) even minimally marked brokens - called "booted brokens" - have white feet = boots

It is an incompletely dominant gene so only one copy creates "brokens" (= EN en) and two copies often create overly white brokens called "Charlies" (= EN EN)

Statistically a broken (EN en) rabbit crossed to a solid (en en) would produce 0% Charlies(EN EN), 50% broken (EN en) and 50% not broken (en en) which is how your buck has broken siblings.

A charlie (EN EN) rabbit crossed to a solid (en en) will produce 0% Charlies (EN EN) , 100% brokens (EN en) and 0% not broken (en en) as the charlie parent can only pass on the dominant ENglish Spot gene to all of his offspring and the solid parent can only pass on the recessive not broken gene

 

[Zass]

Dood beat me!

Please read this over:

http://www.thenaturetrail.com/rabbit-ge ... lie-solid/

A black rabbit with white on it, even a small amount of white, would still be obviously a VM or broken.

In horses there are other genes that can cause white markings that a minimal tobiano could be confused with. In rabbits there is only vienna, dutch, and broken.
Those genes can be hidden with rew or two copies of vienna(BEW) because the whole animal becomes white.

If a rabbit has no white on it, it did not inherit the broken gene. I've heard that vienna can be tricky, but brokens are really strait forward. (I've played with the genes myself)
One copy of the gene will produce a rabbit with some white. Two copies of the gene will produce charlies. (a rabbit with minimal color)

Breeding a charlie to a broken will produce 100% visual brokens (every rabbit inherits one copy)

Breeding broken to broken still produces 25% solid colored animals that simply didn't inherit the gene. The solid kit wouldn't carry broken, but they could still produce them if bred to a broken because it only takes one broken parent to produce 50% broken offspring.

 

[alforddm]

If one parent is broken 50% of the offspring will be broken (statically). If both parents are broken 25% will be charlie, 50% broken, and 25% solid.

White patterns don't typically "hide". It does happen but it's rare. The tobiano I posted is the most minimal I've ever seen.

Horses do have other markings however the one I posed has tested positive for the tobiano mutation. Unlike rabbit most of the color mutations in horses have commercial tests. Which make things easy but also expose the " oddballs".

 

[EnglishSpot]

Ah, Mendelson squares! I love Mendelson squares!!

After reading the page, why are Charlies so undesirable? Are they DQ'd in show because of it? Is showing the only reason why Charlies are so undesirable?

 

[Dood]

Some have found them to have health issues related to their digestve tract or neurology, others seem have no problems :shrug:

Around here white rabbits for pets don't sell well and people seem to prefer a broken with 30% to 70% colour