Picking apart my LH Breeding Pair, Color wise

[ZRabbits]

I kind of had a "light bulb" moment when reading Skysthelimit's thread on her castor and ej gene. Sorry, some things I take in slowly, but thankfully that info does finally arrive. lol

So before I do anything regarding "show stock quality" I need to know what I am doing. As the Lion heads are not recognized YET (hoping for success for those who are doing COD programs), it's time for me to learn.

I went and pulled what the pedigree papers are for both Neville and Luna. Neville is considered a Blue Tort. Luna is considered a Broken Chocolate. Considered and is are definitely different animals in themselves. And my breeding pair is FAR from being near accepted colors, or the ones trying to be accepted.

I'm going to use this thread to start my learning process on Color Genetics.

Neville's Background per his pedigree paper.

Lilac Tort: aa bb C dd ee

Sable Point: aa B_ cc chl D_ ee

Chocolate Tort: aa bb C D ee

Chocolate Point: aa bb c chl D_ ee

Siamese Sable: aa B_ Cchl D_ E_

Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_

Black: aa B_ C_ D_ E_

REW: aa B_ cc D_ E_


Luna's Background per her Pedigree Paper

Broken Chocolate Otter: aa bb C_ D_ E_ (En is Broken or Tri-Color)

Chocolate Tort: aa bb C_ D_ ee

Black Otter: aa B_ C_ D_ E_

Broken Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_ (En is Broken or Tr-Color)

Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_

Black: aa B_ C_ D_ E_

Chocolate Otter: aa bb C_ D_ E_

Broken Black: aa B_ C_ D_ E_ (En is Broken or Tri-Color)


So far I learned that

A Gene tells you whether you will get agouti, self or tan (at)

B Gene tells you whether you have a Black or chocolate

C Gene tells

C gene or (locus) and that this gene affects hair pigment and eye color

D gene tells you dense or delute (coloring)

E gene is the extension or lack of on the hair shaft.


Karen

 

[-HRanchito]

Sounds about right. Are you trying to figure out what color babies you are going to get from them? Did you put the dam and sire on top or on bottom? Looks like the genes you have are:
A- Self only
B - black and chocolate
C - Neville is a REW carrier if the bottom was a parent. If that was from an earlier generation, maybe not
D - You've got both
E - you also have both

It looks like you can have all kinds of colors! It's probably more important to worry about type at this point, and keep the kits that match the working standard best. If you ever want a particular color, it's easy to breed it in.

 

[ZRabbits]

Thanks HRanchito for your comments. Truly appreciate it. I have the type, which was my main concern when starting. Now trying to figure out coloring. Definitely interested on seeing what I get from this pair. Will be sticking to working standard with my kits, but really need to know coloring too.

Neville

Sire: Lilac Tort
Dam: Sable Point

Luna

Sire: Broken Otter Chocolate
Dam: Chocolate Tort

So Sire on Top, Dam on Bottom

Regarding Show Quality, Neville would be DQ'd for white tail and white toe nail. Plus he does not have normal coloring (brown) eyes. They are ermine or should I say blue/gray. So somewhere VM came in?

Luna, I think is a Charlie. Plus with her eyes, they are blue but red will shine through. Is it true, you will know you have a True Charlie is you will have nothing but brokens? And is it with a solid, not tort and Charlie that you would know this?

I know eye coloring is really tough to see in pics. I've read certain lighting will change the eye color. Truly appreciate all feed back.

Karen<br /><br />__________ Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:11 pm __________<br /><br />Answered my own question on Neville's eyes. Per the LH COD, Blue Tortoise should have Blue-Gray Eyes. Tort for the Black family has the "normal" brown eyes.

So Neville would not get DQ'd for eye color.

States in NALRC Guidebook per Lynne Schultz's COD. The () are my answers about Neville.

Tortoise (Blue): The body color is to be a fawn (yes), blending into a blue shading over the rump and carrying well onto the haunches (Yes, at 6 months really see it). Top color should carry well down into the undercolor blending into a cream color next to the skin (Yes). Top of the tail should match the body color, with the underside being blue, blending into a cream next to the skin (No). Belly should match shading, with cream undercolor (yes). Head shadings should be darkest blue at the whisker bed, blending into a lighter shade along the jaw line, darkening again at the ear base and blending up into the ears to match the body color.

Karen

 

[Disney]

Wow i'm in love with Luna, she is sooooo beautiful!!
I'd murder someone to find a chocolate like her in my country

Also, she has blue eyes so she is a vienna marked and carries the blue eyed white gene..
Neville however, i don't think he carries the gene because he doesn't show any white, but he could well be a Vienna Carrier.
Coincidentally, i saw a black tort doe with a Bew kit today, the doe didn't have any white but she threw a Bew kit, so it can be hidden but that rarely is the case since the gene tends to show itself most of the time.

On the charlie/broken part, i think she is a normal broken with some of the spots being cut off by the Vienna gene and adding more white to her, making her look like a charlie.
I did a lot of vienna x broken pairings and all the broken VM kits came out looking like a charlie, but that's because the Vienna gene erases color and adds more to the white.

 

[ZRabbits]

Thanks so much Disney for your comments. Love Luna's Chocolate coloring too. I did more research after posting about Luna being Charlie and actually came to the same conclusion. I think she is a true broken but some of her coloring, like no coloring on her nose, was missing. Now I understand, thanks again for your comments, how. With the VM gene.

This is Neville at 4 weeks. If you look at his nose, I see a vertical line of white, and some on his back paw. So he might have grown out of it, but he still could be a VM carrier?

This is Neville at 6 weeks. I love this pic, Reminds me of the Gopher in Caddy Shack. lol

Will be interesting to see the first litter.

Karen

 

[MamaMandy]

I'm assuming you've also read about false charlies? I just had one born here a couple months ago. You couldn't have a true charlie unless both parents were broken.

 

[ZRabbits]

Thanks MamaMandy, am reading about false charlies right now. Appreciate your help on understanding whats needed to create a true charlie also.

Karen

 

[MamaMandy]

A true charlie is from two broken parents. I bred a broken to a himi and had a baby with only eye rings and a little color on the ears. So it looked like a charlie because it had very little color on it, but genetically it was just a broken so it's called a false charlie. Does that help?

 

[ZRabbits]

Yes it does. Thanks so much.

Karen

 

[MamaMandy]

A false charlie is Enen just like a broken whereas a true charlie is EnEn.

 

[ZRabbits]

Trying to figure out Luna's eye color. Basically could cause a ruby hew to a blue eye. I did some reading and read that it's possible to have BEW w/ Phenotype of REW. That the cause of this could be located in the C locus as chl (light chinchilla) Or the B locus as Chocolate. That it is difficult to eliminate and you constantly see the ruby glow in blue eyes, which is a fault?

This could happen when Type is the focus and you need to cross unfavorable colors to get the right type. But also the article stated that this breeder always puts it on the pedigree. (vv) A normal looking kit with a VM carrier.

Since this vv is not on the pedigree (actually just the Name of the Color) and type was being considered over color, could I assume that Luna is BEW acting like REW and that's causing this red hew? Am I on the right track? Appreciate any input.

Also is it true that a Tort does not have the Sable gene?

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

A tort could hide the sable gene

tort aaB_C_D_ee

sable aaB_c(chl)_D_ee

I have a broken tort that has sable and pointed white immediately in the pedigree. He could be aaB_CchlDdee. I will never know until I have a doe with chl-.

 

[-HRanchito]

If I were you, I wouldn't count on any BEW or REW whatsoever. Luna's eyes look brown to me. Beautiful!

 

[ZRabbits]

Thanks Skysthelimit. Appreciate your input.

Karen<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:12 am __________<br /><br />

If I were you, I wouldn't count on any BEW or REW whatsoever. Luna's eyes look brown to me. Beautiful!

I guess it's the pics I put up, because she does have blue eyes with a red hew. I'll have to see if I can get a better pic of her eyes.

Thanks HRanchito for your compliment on my little girl.

Karen

 

[Bad Habit]

Very nice looking lionheads! Puts mine to shame, as Lily has very little mane, and Dobby's a dm, so just kind of poofy all over. Right now Dob's only got a tuft of long hair around his ears, because I pulled all the extra out. I'd kill to get a doe from that breeding!!!

 

[ZRabbits]

Well I love your Dobby and Lily's coloring. And the colorful kits you have now. Just need a little more DM in those genes. Never know. Will definitely let you know how we make out here. Hoping for a good, healthy litter.

Karen

 

[Disney]

Thanks so much Disney for your comments. Love Luna's Chocolate coloring too. I did more research after posting about Luna being Charlie and actually came to the same conclusion. I think she is a true broken but some of her coloring, like no coloring on her nose, was missing. Now I understand, thanks again for your comments, how. With the VM gene.

This is Neville at 4 weeks. If you look at his nose, I see a vertical line of white, and some on his back paw. So he might have grown out of it, but he still could be a VM carrier?

This is Neville at 6 weeks. I love this pic, Reminds me of the Gopher in Caddy Shack. lol

Will be interesting to see the first litter.

Karen

Ohmy he is sooo cute, i want to squeeze him for hours and cry
He can be a Vienna carrier (Vv) but i wouldn't focus on expecting Bew's in their litter.
But you might get surprised.. you never know with recessive genes, which is what i like the most
Get up in early in the morning, dash to the doe's cage.. take a deep breath over air and feel the excitement tingling in your body.
Then open the nest as quick as you can and see if you got any surprise :mrgreen:
Sorry i'm weird like that

Trying to figure out Luna's eye color. Basically could cause a ruby hew to a blue eye. I did some reading and read that it's possible to have BEW w/ Phenotype of REW. That the cause of this could be located in the C locus as chl (light chinchilla) Or the B locus as Chocolate. That it is difficult to eliminate and you constantly see the ruby glow in blue eyes, which is a fault?

I don't know if it's a fault since i only breed "mutts" and never do shows.
But the ruby cast is probably from her being a chocolate, many chocolates tend to have a ruby cast.
Also many shaded variation do have have a ruby cast,(smoke pearl etc) which is exactly what you said with the chinchilla gene.

This could happen when Type is the focus and you need to cross unfavorable colors to get the right type. But also the article stated that this breeder always puts it on the pedigree. (vv) A normal looking kit with a VM carrier.

Since this vv is not on the pedigree (actually just the Name of the Color) and type was being considered over color, could I assume that Luna is BEW acting like REW and that's causing this red hew? Am I on the right track? Appreciate any input.

Also is it true that a Tort does not have the Sable gene?

Karen

VV = normal, non vienna
Vv = vienna marked / vienna carrier
vv = Bew

Luna is Vv and you won't know if she carries Rew until you breed her to a buck who i either Rew or carries Rew.
I did Rew to Bew breedings and non of the kits have a ruby cast, so it doesn't seem to bleed through..
Luna's ruby cast would be the chocolate gene being present, it's also possible that she carries a recessive gene on the C-locus, chinchilla/himi/rew, you will only find out after breeding her. You will clear her whole genotype more and more with each litter you get.

 

[skysthelimit]

i have noticed, especially with the standard for chocolate otters, that a ruby cast is permissible. so that goes for all chocolates?

 

[Disney]

i have noticed, especially with the standard for chocolate otters, that a ruby cast is permissible. so that goes for all chocolates?

That's what i thought too but wasn't sure since i never had a chocolate before
BUT I'm getting my first chocolate TOMORROW.. so i will check the eyes and post it here

 

[skysthelimit]

Thanks. I'm getting mine's Monday, and like a bad girl, I borrow people's SOP but I have yet to get my own, so I don't know much about chocolates, just a paragraph on the Rex website when they put out the working standard for choco otters.