Pedigree and Line Breeding

[TF3]

I need to read up a lot more on line breeding, so any favorite resources are welcome!

If you are building a pedigree (working towards three generations), what happens if you are linebreeding? Is it a different system for records?
If sire is also grand-sire, they aren't distinct generations, right?
(this is where I suspect learning more about linebreeding will help me... because if "I'm my own grandpa" so to speak, my family tree is all trunk :x :lol: )

 

[ottersatin]

As lon as the Rabbits are the same breed,
your pedigree will be true. You can breed to Nieces nephews,
Aunts, Uncles, Cousins Etc. What you want to do is:
Try to always breed the BEST to the Best!
With each breeding you are trying to end up with an improvement in the progeny.
You are trying to end up with offspring that prove and are hopefully
BETTER than the parent. With tome and proper choices in breeding
this WILL happen. Be careful so as not to ever toss out the Baby with the Bathwater.
Rabbits are made in the nestbox, but go through a growing spurt which will sometimes
make them appear to look so lanky that one may give up on them.
Give any offspring that you felt showed promise in the nestbox, a chance to mature
and row back into it's body. It is very ovten worth the wait!
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[fhjmom]

Same system for line breeding. You just enter the same rabbit in multiple places on the pedigree, so in the example you gave, the sire and grand-sire slot would be duplicate information.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Most serious breeders linebreed very heavily, and it is not uncommon (at all!) in rabbits to "be your own grandpa". It is the quickest and surest way to set traits and weed out the bad genes that may be lurking in your lines.

A-a-and it does count as a "distinct generation".

 

[Deer Heart]

I'd like some clarity on this too! When I emailed ARBA, an ARBA rep told me to actually be able to register a rabbit it must be 3 generations of individuals. So I was under the impression as I am starting with a single buck, I would have to breed for 4 generations so he does not show as great-grandfather, grandfather, or father on both of their pedigrees at any point (and same for my does which would be easier).

 

[Susie570]

I'd like some clarity on this too! When I emailed ARBA, an ARBA rep told me to actually be able to register a rabbit it must be 3 generations of individuals. So I was under the impression as I am starting with a single buck, I would have to breed for 4 generations so he does not show as great-grandfather, grandfather, or father on both of their pedigrees at any point (and same for my does which would be easier).

It doesn't have to be 3 generations of different rabbits, just 3 generations on the pedigree. An unpedigreed rabbit, to my understanding, would have to appear on the great-grandsire/dam line.

 

[Zinnia]

As lon as the Rabbits are the same breed,
your pedigree will be true. You can breed to Nieces nephews,
Aunts, Uncles, Cousins Etc. What you want to do is:
Try to always breed the BEST to the Best!
With each breeding you are trying to end up with an improvement in the progeny.
You are trying to end up with offspring that prove and are hopefully
BETTER than the parent. With tome and proper choices in breeding
this WILL happen. Be careful so as not to ever toss out the Baby with the Bathwater.
Rabbits are made in the nestbox, but go through a growing spurt which will sometimes
make them appear to look so lanky that one may give up on them.
Give any offspring that you felt showed promise in the nestbox, a chance to mature
and row back into it's body. It is very ovten worth the wait!
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

I see you didn't list half-siblings as possible pairing. I'm curious. Would that be just as acceptable as niece, nephew, father... Sharing just one parent, too?

 

[Frecs]

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm a newbie at this as well:

My understanding is, to be "registerable" a rabbit must have a 3-generation pedigree in which all rabbits are "purebred" ...I assume purebred and all the same breed. So, if you are starting with a "mutt" it would need to end up no closer than the 4th generation of a rabbit's pedigree for the rabbit to be registered.

The other thing about getting a rabbit registered, is all rabbits on that pedigree must list their weights.

I *technically* have purebred Silver Fox rabbits. The 3-gen pedigrees they came with listed all Silver Fox sire/dams. But....through line breeding it was discovered that somewhere back there beyond the 3-gen pedigree...an angora (probably F.angora) was mixed in. I could show my Silver Fox as pure SFs and could even register them if they were that good. But, I don't and they aren't and so there you go.

And, my SF's are a good example of the discoveries that can surprise you in the nestbox through line breeding....you can "set" good traits but also discover some bad ones that you can then weed out.

 

[myrkari]

I see you didn't list half-siblings as possible pairing. I'm curious. Would that be just as acceptable as niece, nephew, father... Sharing just one parent, too?

I believe siblings strays out of "line breeding" and into "inbreeding", which is a different kettle of fish :s

 

[Zinnia]

I see you didn't list half-siblings as possible pairing. I'm curious. Would that be just as acceptable as niece, nephew, father... Sharing just one parent, too?

I believe siblings strays out of "line breeding" and into "inbreeding", which is a different kettle of fish :s

I can understand that applying to litter mates, as the parents are both the same. But when they share only one parent, isn't that the same percentage as breeding back a daughter to father... son to mother?

 

[TF3]

Thank you for the great responses~!
It helps me dig in with a bit more sense of practical application.

When would inbreeding (full siblings) give advantage over line breeding (ie mother to son)?
If you breed son to mother, and their offspring back to son/sire's sister... is that the same as brother to sister?
Would it be better in that case to skip one gen and just do the sibling match?

I want to get a line of ejej.
Senior doe is eje.
I have two daughters and one son who are heavily marked, but are likely also eje.
I want to make the best match to get ejej (which I can then test with an outcross later on (this will take a while as they are Flemish Giants),
but also need to bring in more size AND bring the FG up to 100% over several generations.
But I think my first task is to solidify ejej so I can keep it in the line while upsizing etc. afterwards.

 

[Deer Heart]

I'd like some clarity on this too! When I emailed ARBA, an ARBA rep told me to actually be able to register a rabbit it must be 3 generations of individuals. So I was under the impression as I am starting with a single buck, I would have to breed for 4 generations so he does not show as great-grandfather, grandfather, or father on both of their pedigrees at any point (and same for my does which would be easier).

It doesn't have to be 3 generations of different rabbits, just 3 generations on the pedigree. An unpedigreed rabbit, to my understanding, would have to appear on the great-grandsire/dam line.

Actually, I just found the e-mail and their answer was a lot more specific than I remembered;

When you have a rabbit that is six months or older showing a three generation pedigree of purebred animals, you may take your rabbit to a licensed Registrar to have the animal considered for registration. There are 14 animals contained within a three generation pedigree. Of the three generations presented we require a name/ear number for each animal, weight, and variety (color) for each of the animals in the pedigree.

That means with one buck I MUST breed for 4 generations, or he would repeat as a great grandfather on my pedigrees making it 13 "individuals" not the required 14. I would think. Correct me if I am wrong!

 

[myrkari]

Sali, I would focus on the part where it says 14 animals... Not 14 individuals. Or at least that's how it worked in the cat pedigree world (where we were a lot more wary of inbreeding percentages and tracked pedigrees for considerably further than 3gen, because of the nature of our animals.)

Please excuse my hastily drawn and screenshotted example but this is a three generation, fully inbred example pedigree - there are 14 animals, i.e. two parents, four grandparents and eight greatgrandparents, but there are only actually six individuals as it's all brother to sister mating:

Actually doing that would be ill-advised since it's inbreeding to the extremest extreme, but as a thought experiment the result is a technically sound pedigree as far as my knowledge of drawing them up goes, and I hope this helps. Obviously don't draw them on your iPad from in bed for real :lol:

From what you're saying about starting with a single buck though Sali, if your buck has no known parents to show on the pedigree, you're right in thinking that you'd need to breed a few generations - Susie told you the right thing when she said he'd need to end up in the far right column for there to be no gaps in the pedigree.