Pasteurella treatment with Penicillin...

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avdpas77

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Lady,

This is a copy of an old post of mine where I investigated Pasteurella:

avdpas77":1n5rb9eu said:
Pasteurella multocida

Pasteurella is the disease we fear most in our rabbitries. We have all heard different information, so…..what is the truth. According to the 6th edition of Rabbit Production, virtually all rabbits carry the bacteria.
Other articles vary in this opinion, but most agree that the majority of rabbits have it currently or have had in the past.

http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/past.shtml

We have heard, that some rabbits may be recovered carriers, so if your rabbitry gets the disease, you should eliminate the entire herd. If virtually all rabbits carry the disease, how could one raise rabbits? I have been researching these questions, and this is a summation of the information I have found.

A) Often manifestations that appear to be Pasteurella infections are not. Rabbits, like people, often have allergies. I, personally, have had two kits, from different litters that were allergic to the hay I was feeding. Take away the hay, and the symptoms left with it. Another breeder had this same problem with a certain type of wood shavings. I don’t suggest keeping such rabbits for breeders, but one should always evaluate the situation before panicking. A less dangerous (to rabbits) disease called Bordetella bronciseptica (known as kennel cough with dogs and cats) can mimic some of the symptoms of Pasteurella multocida. It is sometimes found together with Pasteurella in severe infections.


B) There are different strains of this germ. Some strains are more virulent than others. It is possible that healthy rabbits are able to resist the less virulent strains, and therefore, with good husbandry, the disease is not a problem. Perhaps that indicates that if your rabbitry is clean, and you are developing multiple cases, it is time to get rid of your stock. If one is not developing multiple cases, it might be prudent to wait. If it is one of the virulent strains, one is probably going to get more rabbits infected, anyway, and one can always purge then.

http://www.rabbit.org/care/pasteurella.html

“Colonization and disease is influenced by factors related to both host and pathogen. Different strains of P. multocida have been isolated from rabbits. They are classified by capsular type and serotype; A:12 is the most common in rabbits in the U.S., but A:3 and other A and D serotypes exist. More severe disease has been associated with A:3 and D strains”



C) In the event you wish to treat a infected rabbit, Baytril is the only recognized drug that is 100% effective. I have heard that some people have trouble finding this drug. With my past experience with pigeons, I know it use to be available from Foy’s or Siegel’s.
 

Lady

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Thanks, the thread just seemed to die out...sorry.

SMR":afctmbfw said:
That looks like VD...they don't always have places otherwise. Pen G long lasting type, 1 shot for 3 weeks should clear it up. Do not stop even if it clears up after the 1st dose. Rate is 1/10 cc per pound of body weight.

Now the other...same as every one else on subject. Plus if you plan on buying rabbits from others in the future, it could be a problem.

Would that be once a week for 3wks or?
 

OneAcreFarm

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Lady":2wio4x5x said:
The rest of him is totally clean and clear, there is nothing on his genitals at all. No reddening, no hair loss, nothing.
I noticed his nose last week, week before his nose was fine.

__________ Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:51 am __________

So no one knows how long to give the Pen, eh? Strange..

Lady, it is not that no one knows how long to give the PenG...several of us responded that if you suspect Pasteurella, PenG is not the drug you want to give. All it would do is possibly knock the symptoms down long enough for you to relax and allow the rest of your herd to be exposed.... It WILL likely work on the nose issue if it *is* vent disease (which it looks like, honestly).

According to this rabbit drug dosage calculator:
http://www.morfz.com/rx/drugcalc.html

You need to know which PenG it is, as the dosage is different:

PenG Benzathine:
42,000-84,000 IU/kg
Every other day, SC, IM
Injectable tolerated, watch for diarrhea. Limit use 5 days.

PenG Procaine:
20,000-60,000 IU/kg
q24h for 5-7 days, SC, IM
Injectable tolerated, watch for diarrhea.

If you do this, get some ProBios or Benebac to recolonize their gut with good bacteria, which the ABX will kill off.
 

SMR

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Once a week for three weeks, yes. The dosage calculater is good :) BUT that's if you get the long lasting Pen.
 

OneAcreFarm

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SMR":3vcd8kh3 said:
Once a week for three weeks, yes. The dosage calculater is good :) BUT that's if you get the long lasting Pen.

Right, which is why I posted it, since we don't know WHAT PenG she has...Always pays to know these things ahead of time! :)
 

SMR

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Sorry OneAcre...was replying to their question and didn't see the other post before hit submit lol. Yes it is definitely a good thing to know ahead of time :)
 

OneAcreFarm

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SMR":3f9ksfwq said:
Sorry OneAcre...was replying to their question and didn't see the other post before hit submit lol. Yes it is definitely a good thing to know ahead of time :)

__________ Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:46 pm __________

Sorry OneAcre...was replying to their question and didn't see the other post before hit submit lol. Yes it is definitely a good thing to know ahead of time :)

Hey, no worries! ;)
 

Lady

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OneAcreFarm":24y8gb3p said:
Lady":24y8gb3p said:
The rest of him is totally clean and clear, there is nothing on his genitals at all. No reddening, no hair loss, nothing.
I noticed his nose last week, week before his nose was fine.

__________ Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:51 am __________

So no one knows how long to give the Pen, eh? Strange..

Lady, it is not that no one knows how long to give the PenG...several of us responded that if you suspect Pasteurella, PenG is not the drug you want to give. All it would do is possibly knock the symptoms down long enough for you to relax and allow the rest of your herd to be exposed.... It WILL likely work on the nose issue if it *is* vent disease (which it looks like, honestly).

According to this rabbit drug dosage calculator:
http://www.morfz.com/rx/drugcalc.html

You need to know which PenG it is, as the dosage is different:

PenG Benzathine:
42,000-84,000 IU/kg
Every other day, SC, IM
Injectable tolerated, watch for diarrhea. Limit use 5 days.

PenG Procaine:
20,000-60,000 IU/kg
q24h for 5-7 days, SC, IM
Injectable tolerated, watch for diarrhea.

If you do this, get some ProBios or Benebac to recolonize their gut with good bacteria, which the ABX will kill off.


I know that, I got that it would not treat URI. I was going with Vent disease if that's what it is.
 

squidpop

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My understanding is Penicillin is sometimes used used for Pasteurella but only a certain kind and only through injections not orally, but usually Vets prescribe Baytril or Doxycycline. If you're sure you have the right Penicillin I would try it, but if the infection comes back at a later date then you should go to the Vet and get Baytril, or cull.

The theory that almost all rabbits carry pasteurella yet have no symtoms yet if you get a new one with symtoms and it makes contact with the other rabbits who already have it then they will all become infected with chronic snuffles symtoms doesn't make sense to me— So I am wondering if there are different strains of Pasteurella— some that are more virulent than others? Or maybe the rabbits showing symtoms also have other bacteria like bordetella in their systems working as a catalyst for the Pasteurella.

(Woops- I posted this and just realized in a previous post someone said there are different strains- that makes sense).
 

OneAcreFarm

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squidpop":307sj21l said:
My understanding is Penicillin is sometimes used used for Pasteurella but only a certain kind and only through injections not orally, but usually Vets prescribe Baytril or Doxycycline. If you're sure you have the right Penicillin I would try it, but if the infection comes back at a later date then you should go to the Vet and get Baytril, or cull.

The theory that almost all rabbits carry pasteurella yet have no symtoms yet if you get a new one with symtoms and it makes contact with the other rabbits who already have it then they will all become infected with chronic snuffles symtoms doesn't make sense to me— So I am wondering if there are different strains of Pasteurella— some that are more virulent than others? Or maybe the rabbits showing symtoms also have other bacteria like bordetella in their systems working as a catalyst for the Pasteurella.

(Woops- I posted this and just realized in a previous post someone said there are different strains- that makes sense).

Different strains and different types....some are acute and extremely virulent, others more chronic in nature. Some manifest with respiratory symptoms, ie. sneezing, white snot, eye discharge...while some are internal and cause abcesses in the skin, abdomen and in the lungs. My understanding is that it is not so much that all rabbits CARRY it, but that they have all likely been exposed at one time or another. Those with weaker immune systems become infected and either display symptoms or carry a latent infection around until they are stressed enough for the bacteria to overwhelm their immune systems.
 

Stormy

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OK I have to speak up here - I too have been hit with a lot of "sounds like Pasteurella you better cull your infected rabbits asap!" on various posts over the past couple months. It totally freaked me out and I'm glad I didn't do that. It seems like there are quite a few people here who have had the misfortune of getting pasteurella, and I feel for you, but not all respiratory illness is pasteurella.

Here's a link with all the possible bacterial and viral respiratory infections: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respirator ... a_diff.htm

After a round of Baytril, and then a round of Penecillin (for vent disease) my rabbit was completely cured = not pasteurella. I did cull a couple fryers to avoid infecting the colony instead of treating them. A few adults appeared to have light respiratory issues or eye gooks, but got over them without treatment. There really are quite a few different diseases out there. I did not pull a culture as there was no discharge to collect, but had the situation continued, I would have. I located a livestock testing facility that will run a test for the bacteria by mail for like $20. I think that is pretty reasonable, to know what you are working with. Again, it could be a lot of things. Maybe there is a testing facility in an ag area near you, or I can look up the one in Turlock,Ca for you.

The treatment Barbi Brown's rabbity suggested for Penecillin for vent disease, I'd imagine would be the same for respiratory dosage:
"You can give any IM drug Sub-Q but NEVER give sub-q meds IM. Pen G is fine sub-Q or IM. Sub-Q is safer. Don't payany attention to bottle dosages. Rabbits have a much faster metabolism than any other animal so they require higher doses to be effective. I have always used .1cc (m)l per pound of body wt. in 6 doses for vent. 3 doses in 3 days and one a week for 3 weeks. "

I did not experience a cure with vent disease with the straight penecillin G Procain, but my rabbit did 100% clear up from his respiratory issue I could just barely hear in there when I picked him up.

My vet disagreed though about using IM meds Sub-Q by the way, and tells me that is why it wasn't effective.
I am just sharing opinions here, as I don't have enough experience yet either way to have my own!

For Duo-Pen, she prescribed 0.066 ml per lb, but only one injection Sub-Q per week for 3 weeks.
 

OneAcreFarm

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Stormy":1k4fu3l1 said:
OK I have to speak up here - I too have been hit with a lot of "sounds like Pasteurella you better cull your infected rabbits asap!" on various posts over the past couple months. It totally freaked me out and I'm glad I didn't do that. It seems like there are quite a few people here who have had the misfortune of getting pasteurella, and I feel for you, but not all respiratory illness is pasteurella.

Here's a link with all the possible bacterial and viral respiratory infections: http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respirator ... a_diff.htm

Stormy,

I don't believe any of us have said to cull all rabbits for any respiratory symptoms...There are symptoms that are particular to Pasteurella and those are the ones that concern me. Repeated sneezing for no reason that I can determine, white snot, matted paws and white, thick eye discharge are the main ones. Yes, there are other respiratory illnesses, BUT, they can be secondary to a pasteurella infection. AND, the testing they do for Pasteurella is not 100% accurate, as they cannot always get to where the bacteria is living in the rabbits nasal cavities. My thoughts are this...rabbits with healthy immune systems do not get sick. Therefore, if the rabbit gets sick, whether it is pasteurellosis or not, I don't want weak immune systems in my herd. Unless *I* did something to cause it the illness, like bad floor wire causing sore hocks or a dirty nestbox causing nestbox eye or something that is easily treatable without a Vet visit, like mastitis or vent disease, then it will be culled. For those issues that I mentioned, I will treat once and if it returns, it is culled. Again, that is just my personal experience and opinion, YMMV :)
 

skysthelimit

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I feel the same way. I have enough to get right, breeding issues, growth rate, body type, fur texture/color. I simply will not deal with ill rabbits. I will cull for anything and everything I can, to bring out the best in this herd.
I had been saving kits when I got cases of enteritis, but I decided to cull the doe and nearly the entire line, and I haven't had a problem since, when I used to have 1-2 per litter.
 

ZRabbits

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Stormy, I'm truly glad you spoke out and put your feelings out for all to see regarding culling. Thanks OAF for your explanation of your personal views and practices on culling.

I cringed the first time reading about "culling". When Neville was ill, my Meat Rabbit Vet stated that I should cull him because of the diseases, but I requested he treat. Why, because Neville was my "Heart" bunny. And I would have done it for any of my Tribe. Thankfully the Baytril was the key for the inner ear infection. Then when I bred Neville to Luna, my doubts came forth again regarding the issue. I was worried that maybe it would be passed on to the kits. So far, "knock on wood" all his offspring are strong.

But I truly believe now, after reading and researching about immune system in bunnies, that a good practice is to cull after one treatment. If doesn't work, the bunny will suffer and could possibly affect your others in the herd and future kits.

It's so refreshing to come to a forum where views are respected and expressed. Such an educational experience and need.

Karen
 

Stormy

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Thanks ZRabbits - I do actually share your sentiments and the more moderate approaches of others on this forum. I am learning I do have to cull for strength since I'm seeing Encephalitis in my pasture bunnies, and learning that Belgian Hares are prone to respiratory illnesses. I am selecting for immune strength - however, its my fault not the rabbit's that I let him run free and he got infected with a couple different types of illnesses - respiratory & vent disease. If he becomes a repeated source of infection now that he's caged, and seems perfectly robust btw, then I'd consider neutering him and moving him indoors.
I did cringe to kill youngsters who were really sick because I knew I would not eat them nor keep them... and we got through the respiratory issues. But yes, I did get advice from a few different people to kill all rabbits with signs of illness - just weed 'em out. That is not really an option with more delicate breeds. What I can do is choose the very sturdiest and healthiest of the stock I have available, and not breed those who aren't. (for instance, all Black & Tan Belgian Hares in the U.S. are prone to respiratory illness = eliminate the stock, the entire color is eliminated. What is needed is a building up of sturdier stock) And, I agree - if a rabbit needs multiple treatments its becoming a real liability and risk to the whole herd.

For my doe with Encephalitis, I'm treating her right now but given that her aunt in the same colony pen has no sign of the illness, her offspring will not be kept in the gene pool for American Blues but she can continue to raise babies for meat, because she's darling and a good mom. One breeder I talked to did suggest EC does could still produce clean offspring with proper treatment, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with that level of maintenance, wondering if some rabbits can't have a more natural immunity to the bug. We shall see. I am treating with Baycox which supposedly can kill the protozoa.

By the way, I live in a wild area with a lot of wild animals. The pasture has been shared with many species including cottontails. I cannot accuse my rabbits for being of weak stock when they've been exposed to so many more diseases out there than I was aware of existing for rabbits. (and we caught one of them from our rabbits!! we got better :) Pasture raised rabbits is a whole other criteria than a rabbit in a cage getting airborne illness...
 

skysthelimit

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I have to admit I am a culling machine. Limited space makes it necessary. But my rabbits don't touch the ground, and besides me and my dogs, there is nothing else to infect them. I can see pasture raised and colony raised getting more consideration because of possible contact with the ground and wild animals.
 

MaggieJ

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I think we all need to find our own comfort level with culling. When someone expresses an opinion that a rabbit should probably be culled, it is just that: an opinion. No one ever says you have to cull, so use your own judgment. Some people have deeper pockets than others and can afford to try treating the rabbit. Many of us are not able to afford vet bills. Here it is $40 just for an office visit... and the meds on top of that.

Anyone who has gone through the devastating experience of a disease like Pasteurella sweeping through the rabbitry - as OneAcreFarm has - is bound to take a harder line on culling sick rabbits. I have been lucky here - illnesses are rare because I have a closed herd - but I still cull any rabbit that shows signs of a weak immune system.
 

ZRabbits

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MaggieJ":3jh3zqt6 said:
I think we all need to find our own comfort level with culling. When someone expresses an opinion that a rabbit should probably be culled, it is just that: an opinion. No one ever says you have to cull, so use your own judgment. Some people have deeper pockets than others and can afford to try treating the rabbit. Many of us are not able to afford vet bills. Here it is $40 just for an office visit... and the meds on top of that.

Anyone who has gone through the devastating experience of a disease like Pasteurella sweeping through the rabbitry - as OneAcreFarm has - is bound to take a harder line on culling sick rabbits. I have been lucky here - illnesses are rare because I have a closed herd - but I still cull any rabbit that shows signs of a weak immune system.


I don't have deep pockets either, but I truly believe that what you stated regarding comfort level is the key. I treat one time because they are pets. I truly believe it's anyone's opinion regarding culling and respect all decisions and avenues taken. I have all respect for OneAcreFarm for her way of this practice. She's been through it and knows that she will never let it happen again.

Karen
 

AnnClaire

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Also, remember that the definition of cull is to a) remove, b) terminate ... so if you simply remove the ill rabbit from the herd, that is an act of culling ... just not terminally culling which so many assume is what is meant.
 

LindseysWoolies

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I try to use the terms terminally cull and cull so that nobody gets confused because this can be a sore subject for some.
 
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