No More Charlies

[ladysown]

Doesn't matter to me if false charlies or true charlies.

No more sold for the pet market.

They have too many gut issues and having children crying because their bunny died (who by the way was TOTALLY fine at my place for 11 weeks) and goes to a new house, is fine eating, playing, binkying and then suddenly is dead.

I've had them die suddenly like that just staying at home in a nice quiet, regular environment.

Bugs me when that happens.

So I made the decision today I'll just cull them in the box unless I need them for warmth with other kits (that way I'm not tempted again to see how they go). They can make the local snake girl happy instead.

Just not worth it to me.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

hmmm,That brings up some interesting thinking on the relationship between color markings and genetic health of internal organs, etc--

 

[ladysown]

the odd thing is... some people can have charlies and they are just fine.
but for the life of me I can't keep 'em. I've had people give me young kits (less than four months) and they just die.
I've grown them up and by the time they are six months old I'll find 'em dead in the cage (or close to it).

I just keep thinking...maybe this one will be fine...it's off a new rabbit, the genetics will be different sort of....but doesn't matter....

So it's better to say "fitz" to it then to keep trying.

 

[MamaMandy]

I find this idea very interesting. I've also begun noticing a correlation between hardiness and color. But, my Charlie's seem to do just fine. It's the colors I really want that never seem to make it.

 

[akane]

I've heard several people have problems with charlies but mine were always just fine. In fact I had a plan to make a charlie on purpose for 100% broken netherlands to sell but that plan got pushed aside for the american sable project (which is going nowhere).

 

[Happy]

Color markings can't themselves affect internal organ health, but a trait that weakens the organs can be located near a color trait on the chromosomes. The closer two traits are in the genome, the more likely they are to pair, which over time and breeding can generate a correlation.

 

[rawfeeder]

Interesting points raised! I have zero experience breeding rabbits (as my does have yet to have a litter for me). But I did raise rats extensivley a couple of years ago, and studied their genetics. I defiantly noticed that dilutes colors, and whitening genes had an impact on hardiness and size.

That being said, I do currently own a false Charlie doe... she is 11 months old and doing fine so far. However her poops are softer and larger, and she is a tad smaller than her solid colored sister.

 

[skysthelimit]

I find a weakness in these lines, mostly in the blacks and dilutes. My chins are also much smaller than the other colors.

 

[curlysue]

I was told by a judge that Dwarf hotots have a lot of gut issues.

 

[BlueLove16]

Ah thats so sad...i was just saying in another thread how i like charlies and how i wouldnt mind a charlie tri to throw me nice tri litters. i didnt think about the health issues corrolating. I guess with any animal...like the lethal genes in dogs, or megacolon in rats. you breed for beauty and things go bad ):

 

[Dood]

Color markings can't themselves affect internal organ health, but a trait that weakens the organs can be located near a color trait on the chromosomes. The closer two traits are in the genome, the more likely they are to pair, which over time and breeding can generate a correlation.

There are actually many diseases associated with melanin production which is limited or lacking in white animals.

Albino humans have many other internal issues rather than just light sensitivity and a higher incidence of skin cancer but most animal research has focussed on white dogs and cats.

Some of the health issues associated with white dogs and cats are
- deafness from brittle hairs in the inner ear- this can correlate to poor fur quality in light colored rabbits
- liver disease from a reduced ability to remove metals, usually copper, from the liver
-oxalate bladder and kidney stones from a reduced production of chelating agents that inhibit their formation
- skin issues from keratinization disorders.

Just to name a few that have be well studied.

 

[AmysMacdog]

I am so sorry, I know how you feel. I have a line of meat mutts, not charlies, but they are nice rabbits that have large litters, are sweet and easy to handle but have a heart disorder so I'm having to replace them all. The ones I have left, I look at them and its such a shame because they look great. Happy, healthy but I know they won't live long so I have 4 newbies in QT and as they begin to produce I'll replace the rest.

 

[ZRabbits]

Color markings can't themselves affect internal organ health, but a trait that weakens the organs can be located near a color trait on the chromosomes. The closer two traits are in the genome, the more likely they are to pair, which over time and breeding can generate a correlation.

There are actually many diseases associated with melanin production which is limited or lacking in white animals.

Albino humans have many other internal issues rather than just light sensitivity and a higher incidence of skin cancer but most animal research has focussed on white dogs and cats.

Some of the health issues associated with white dogs and cats are
- deafness from brittle hairs in the inner ear- this can correlate to poor fur quality in light colored rabbits
- liver disease from a reduced ability to remove metals, usually copper, from the liver
-oxalate bladder and kidney stones from a reduced production of chelating agents that inhibit their formation
- skin issues from keratinization disorders.

Just to name a few that have be well studied.

Water has a lot to do now a days with levels of metal that are absorbed by both human and animals. Especially here in New Jersey. The sheep here are having problems with copper because of the water. We are fortunate to have a full RO (reverse osmosis) system in our home. This removes ALL metals from the water, along with radionuli, which attach to metals.

I have done thorough studies on this issue alone. And presented them to both State Congress and Federal EPA. And they had no answers.

So will watch my two white rabbits, along with my "False Charlie" to see if any of these issues ever arise. But I think people really need to know what's in their water. Not just food, but also water which is very important to bunnies.

Karen

 

[Random Rabbit]

On the Yahoo group... Rabbit Genetics... there has been discussion about Charlies and issues... I read there a Lot when i was attempting to work with the Blanc de Hotot rabbits. They have issues with internal things !!!

Here is the link... one does not need to be a member of the group to search their archives...

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rabbit_Genetics/

 

[Dood]

.The sheep here are having problems with copper because of the water

I had heard sheep have trouble clearing copper. Do you know if black or chocolate sheep are susceptible? I know white goats don't seem to have a problem.

A huge source of copper contamination is manure from swine operations. The metal is added to their feed as an 'natural' anti parasitic. The manure is them spread on fields as 'natural' fertilizer and the copper makes it way into the water supply. The plants in the field also absorb an abnormally high amount of the mineral and if the crop is alfalfa or hay and then fed to sheep the poor animals get a double whammy from water and food!

With more people wanting antibiotic free meat, I can only see the copper levels increasing all sorts of animal feeds and in turn ending up in 'natural' fertilizers and the sheep industry suffering.

 

[Honorine]

Charlies do have more gut issues due to lack of pigment, as for the Blanc de Hotots they may also have a genetic gallbladder problem that runs in the breed. It causes liver damage. Friend of mine is documenting it by necropsing all her Blancs and recording what lines they come from, its a work in progress. It seems that many of pigment changing genes cause problems, BEW MR have immune problems, seems to be worsened by the presence of the dwarf gene. I think its a good idea not to sell charlies as pets, save a lot of heartache.

 

[jessie15273]

.The sheep here are having problems with copper because of the water

I had heard sheep have trouble clearing copper. Do you know if black or chocolate sheep are susceptible? I know white goats don't seem to have a problem.

A huge source of copper contamination is manure from swine operations. The metal is added to their feed as an 'natural' anti parasitic. The manure is them spread on fields as 'natural' fertilizer and the copper makes it way into the water supply. The plants in the field also absorb an abnormally high amount of the mineral and if the crop is alfalfa or hay and then fed to sheep the poor animals get a double whammy from water and food!

With more people wanting antibiotic free meat, I can only see the copper levels increasing all sorts of animal feeds and in turn ending up in 'natural' fertilizers and the sheep industry suffering.

From what I have learned, all sheep are sensitive to copper, there is even some speculation about angora goats being sensitive to it as well.

 

[TheLittleBunny10]

whats a charlie?

 

[Random Rabbit]

Sheep are extremely sensitive to copper. Goats are usually Needing added copper. Very different critters.

 

[MamaMandy]

So it sounds like the issue really has nothing to do with the broken gene and whether the rabbit is a true charlie or a false charlie, but has more to do with the actual amount of pigment a rabbit has on it's body.

Has anyone had issues with broken that are normally or heavily marked?