New mom didn't build a nest, litter is dead :(

[Zinnia]

First time mom, French Angora. 7 months old. 31 days bred. She made no nest, pulled no wool. I woke up to see she kindled in the corner of her pen and all 10 beautiful babies are frozen solid. She has straw and hay in abundance all over the pen, but without pulled wool and a nest, they had no chance. When I got to her this morning, she jumped over onto them, showing some acknowledgment that they were "hers". But, obviously, she does not know how to build a nest.

My question is this. Is this common in first time moms? And if so, is there good hope that she will "get it" next time? My other does got it the first time.

I want to breed her back right away. That's okay, right? And, when she's due again, is there something I can do for her if she's not pulled wool by day 30?

Thanks for your help.

Zinnia

 

[Sagebrush]

I would say that it is fairly common for first time does. Usually they get it right the second time around. If you are really wanting a litter from her then yes, go ahead and rebreed her now. I would not worry about her not pulling fur till the kits are born, though if no fur is pulled you can line the nest with dryer lint. I have used it this winter with some of the kits born here. It helps in a pinch. If she still has not pulled fur after the kits are born then you can manually pull some of the fur from her belly to stimulate her milk and she will probably continue to pull fur to cover the kits with.

I try to put my first timers next to an experienced doe if I have one available, it helps them to figure it out quicker.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sorry about the lost litter!

Most of us have a 3 strikes rule because some does just don't "get it right" the first time... or the second... :x

You can go ahead and breed her right back.

I would leave her nestbox with her for a couple of days just in case her instincts kick in a little late. She may still make a nest and pull fur, and I think it is good "practice" for them if they can follow through on that. I don't know if it actually helps, but there is no harm in trying.

And, when she's due again, is there something I can do for her if she's not pulled wool by day 30?

Some does don't pull fur until after their kits are born. Since she just kindled, her fur should pull out easily now. Right now would be prime time to pull fur from her flanks and belly to save for next time.

 

[Zinnia]

Okay, I'm going to pull her wool now to save for next time. She still hasn't pulled any. I feel like I'll need to be on high alert next time, in case I need to catch her having just kindled... and needing help with her with her nest. They were all so beautiful and perfect. No runts. All good sized. I feel awful, because if I had just been there a few hours before... I'm sure she had them by around 4 AM. I got to her around 7 and just felt like crap when I saw this. Nice to hear this is common. I've heard of it happening, but all my other does had good mom instincts right from the first litter.

 

[PSFAngoras]

I defiantly agree with MSD on saving the wool for next time. I always make sure not to spin all my angora and have some on hand for those moments, and it's been the saving grace for my last two litters born with out cold temps. Both moms are short hair, but they readily accepted the angora though it was put in a day in advance in both cases. (The champ never pulls wool til after, and I didn't want to risk loosing the Rex's first litter since I can't have her bred to that buck again...) The only thing I watch for is that the kits don't get caught up in the angora, as I've had it happen before. Usually only need the normal daily check for this.

Most of the time for first time moms in winter I like to put the hay in the box for them, and then make a tunnel to the back. If I put wool in, I put it in just like mom would. Maybe it's not letting them learn the first time, but I haven't had the does fail at nest building the second time yet, so maybe it's just setting the example. Actually my rex doe first timer didn't even try beside adding a small mouthful or two of her own fur, so maybe I did it too well. I will also ad wool to the short haired does nests when we have severely bad weather, first time or not.

 

[Zinnia]

Well, I have bags of wool. So, the wool would have helped me if I had gotten to the litter in time. I did have a nest box in her pen. Her pen is 4 X 8, so she saw lots of other places besides the box to kindle. I thought if I prepared her nest for her, lined with wool (that was not her own), she'd reject the box. As it turned out, she rejected the box, went in the corner and never pulled wool.

I do have hope for her, as she did appear to know they were her kits. She was just confused.

 

[Homer]

This is all good advice for first timers but will ad that "Litter Saver" is some really neat stuff and I try to keep some on hand at all times. You can find more information in this thread; http://rabbittalk.com/post248224.html?hilit=litter saver#p248224

 

[alforddm]

I'm so very sorry. I wish you the best of luck next time.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

I am so sorry to hear this! I know how sad I would be!

 

[Zinnia]

Well, two of my other does have made their nests and lined them with wool in the last couple hours. One is a first timer, and the other is seasoned. I'll be out there every hour to be sure it happens all cozy and protected. So, this day may end happier.

Fara was not responsive to being rebred yet. She is still looking for her babies, too. So, I'm going to give her a little more time. <br /><br /> -- Wed Dec 31, 2014 4:29 pm -- <br /><br /> The litter saver sounds interesting. Looking back, I think I just assumed she would be fine and allowed too much space. It was much too confusing for her for her first time. I may want to confine new moms to a smaller space and help them with their nests... and probably be up all night, too.

Thank you all for your kind words and suggestions. I'm hoping for success with these other mamas tonight....

 

[PSFAngoras]

:good-luck:

I'll be sending good thoughts your way for warm fat little popples!

 

[Truckinguy]

I"m sorry about your litter. It's always upsetting to lose one to the cold. You mentioned they were frozen solid so I guess they were gone but if you get a litter born in the same situation and they're not rock solid you can bring them inside and start warming them slowly on a heating pad or up against a jar of warm water in a towel. I don't want to give unnecessary hope but I've had a few frozen miracles come back to life and be just fine. My "Frozen Five" will be ready to process at the end of January. I have a habit of bringing all dead kits inside now just to be sure.

As someone already quoted on another thread: "They're not dead until they're warm and dead"!

Best of luck on her next litter!

 

[Zinnia]

:good-luck:

I'll be sending good thoughts your way for warm fat little popples!

They're here! Warm, fat, healthy babies. The other new mama built a huge, furry nest and gave birth to 6 fat ones. The seasoned mama has at least 8..... All fat and WARM.

-- Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:30 pm --

I"m sorry about your litter. It's always upsetting to lose one to the cold. You mentioned they were frozen solid so I guess they were gone but if you get a litter born in the same situation and they're not rock solid you can bring them inside and start warming them slowly on a heating pad or up against a jar of warm water in a towel. I don't want to give unnecessary hope but I've had a few frozen miracles come back to life and be just fine. My "Frozen Five" will be ready to process at the end of January. I have a habit of bringing all dead kits inside now just to be sure.

As someone already quoted on another thread: "They're not dead until they're warm and dead"!

Best of luck on her next litter!

Yep, I learned that from a thread here before. Unfortunately, these little ones were too frozen. I did bring them in and tried to warm the two that were still "flexible", but they did not respond. <br /><br /> -- Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:03 pm -- <br /><br /> So here's a new question.

It's cold. Last winter my does did great keeping the babies warm in REALLY cold weather. But, I've heard that some people will bring the kits in for the night and return them to mom in the morning. Is there any danger in doing that? How do I know mom will accept them back? Or, should I leave them alone since they are really well made nests?

Thanks. Just a little worried now the we had the frozen babies this morning....

 

[Marinea]

I always bring in my litters during the winter. I have yet to have a doe reject the kits.

I had two does kindle today- both boxes are in the house. I checked both litters for problems, added some dryer lint, counted kits and put the boxes in the guest room. They will go out for feedings and then back inside for about two weeks or so.

 

[ckcs]

Sorry for your loss. I've had a couple of does botch their first litter. Everyone of them got it right on the second litter. One thing I love about my French Angoras is I always have a bag of their fur around to help if needed. I had a doe kindle several days late on the wire (I had pulled the box). Luckily I was able to get to them in time. Mine are inside but even at 70 degrees the kits will chill and die.

 

[Zinnia]

I struggle with the idea of going back and forth with them. I know Nutmeg's kits did great outside last winter, in colder weather than this (seriously subzero). The only problems I've had is when a kit becomes stranded from the nest. I've solved that problem with high nest box walls, so I don't expect that to happen. I've dealt with a dozen litters, but I still get worried!

Would I put them in a box lined with straw and wool indoors? I could rest easy knowing they are safe inside.

Should I expect that when I bring them out, mama will hop in and nurse them? Once a day, right?

Can I hear from anyone that leaves the litter outside in very cold weather with success? For now, I will be checking on them every couple of hours and surely won't get sleep.....

 

[PSFAngoras]

I leave my litters outside year round. It's not that I don't worry, but I have a VERY small house, no indoor cage space, and I worry that bringing the kits inside will have them acclimated to the indoor temps, which then would have me concerned that if they ever NEEDED to be put outside during one of our harsher cold spells that they would be poorly acclimated for it and perhaps get sick and/or die. (My fancy show quality FA doe that I bought this summer for an arm and a leg from an indoor rabbitry is STILL not very comfortable outside with the negative temperatures, while my other angoras act like its 50 degrees and sunny).

I do make rounds when I know a doe is due and check on her and the progress of the nest (if it's a day I work and she's getting close, I'll make sure the nest is stuffed with donor wool in advanced, never had one doe reject it in winter, only when it's too hot for it in summer, but I try to breed does to kindle on the weekends when I'm home this time of year), and reguardless of how old the kits are I still check each kit every morning and then make sure the kit pile is properly covered again as the temps drop again at night. I don't have high sides on my boxes, but they are oversized boxes (room for momma to get out of the wind in the front, all good mommas so far, have yet to have one soil/tromple a litter) and had good success last year in - teens and we're currently been in the negative single digits, and still no frozen kits, but all were born in the box. I can't recall what the temps were my first winter breeding, but I know we had some pretty decent cold and I had more than a few litters born that winter.

Come to think of it I've only ever had one doe loose kits to the cold, and that was a doe who NEVER nested and usually ate her babies if they somehow survived on the wire in the warmer months. I was just starting and she was my only satin angora, so I really wanted a litter from her, but looking back on it now those definately weren't mothering instincts I want to struggle with, so it's probably better she never had a successful litter in her 3 attempts.

I've lucked out with mommas putting kits in the nest with their first litters (besides the satin doe, and that's not to say some of the others didn't have issues with other things still), but I would still give them a three strike policy if they didn't. Odds are your doe will get it right next time, cold or not.

 

[Marinea]

Would I put them in a box lined with straw and wool indoors? I could rest easy knowing they are safe inside.

Should I expect that when I bring them out, mama will hop in and nurse them? Once a day, right?

We just bring our nestboxes in. When I take them out for their morning feeding, the does usually jump right in. I stay and watch that they are nursing. If the weather is going to be very bad, I bring the boxes back in after the feeding and take them back out in the evening for another feeding, then bring the box back in until morning. If the weather isn't going to be terrible, I leave the nestbox out until nighttime and then bring it in.

 

[Zinnia]

Thanks for that advice.

I remembered that all the winter litters last year were fine as long as babies had no way of getting out if the nests. That was in subzero temps. Last night it was 5 degrees. So, I left the litters alone, but took turns checking on them with my husband (good guy ). They were all fine all through the night. The litter of 6 with the new mama seems well fed. Millie turned out to be a great mom, with perfect nesting instincts... well fed babies and just the right amount of concern for people in her space. The litter of 9 actually has 11! That's her biggest litter, yet. There are 2 or 3 that are slightly smaller, so I will be helping mom with divided feedings to favor the littler ones until they catch up.

So, apparently the body heat of newborn kits in a well-made nest is warm enough for cold winter nights in a northern climate. Whew!

 

[TriumphTriple]

This happened to me today, exactly all the same questions. First time mom. This is my 3rd litter. Learned a lot from the comments.