New Mom but kits have slowly died on us

[minibackyardfarmer]

This was our first set of kits and 1st time mom.

All seemed well. She didn't have them in the nesting box but on the cage, we were home and put them in the nesting box (non were cold as we waited for her to clean etc.).

As of tues they would have been 2wks old.

The first few days of life they seemed to do really well and mom seem to be taking care of really well. Then she started to want to eat their bedding (she pulled very little fur) instead of from her hay rack. And when they tried to feed - I watched one time in the am when it was normally when she feed - as soon as they latched she would jump out and just eat the nesting from the outside of the box then.

But all still seemed well with them. So I assumed when she wasn't being moody she was letting them feed and I was just replacing their nesting along with adding extra hay for her in her cage (she would just spread it out not eat it and eat the nesting material lol).

Then about day 6 we started losing kits. She had 7 total. When we would find them they were lethargic, teeth grinding, some looked a little thin, and would do the loud out sounds flinch a bunch and just go limp. We comforted them the best we could but knew what the outcome would be.

As of 4 days ago there was only 2. Which we took inside and would bring out to her to feed. I needed up having to sit her on my lap and sometimes flip her upside down to allow them to feed, because as soon as they would start she wanted nothing to do with them. The one morning she was at the door as soon as she saw me thinking she was getting some greens but as soon as she saw I had them she turned her back to us. I even tried doing greens and letting them under her, nope she still wanted nothing to do with them.

They were doing good, or so I thought, with us taking them to her and keeping them in the house. Honestly I thought they were doing awesome compared to before. Then for last nights feeding one of them started acting like the previous ones. The other was still bouncy and ready to feed. Then this morning that one started acting the same way.

So we've last all 7 kits. The mom shows no signs of any illnesses, no messy bottoms, etc.

We were told that sometimes first time moms don't produce enough milk no matter how much extra feed you supplement with due to having kits, first time mom just kind of suck sometimes, and we've even been told that mom bunnies can prevent their milk from dropping and actually starve their kits (don't know how accurate that is).

So our questions are:

1. What could have happened that we can be on top of for any future kits? As we have one that may be having some kits soon (if she was caught, she wasn't always wanting to lift) and is actually the sister to our doe who we just lost all 7 kits from. - the does are satin flemish mixes (if that matters)


2. Should we allow Freckles (the doe to the 7 kits) rebreed come next spring to see if she does better or just put her into our processing mix?

I know sometimes first times suck and you always give them a 2nd chance. I'm just afraid that if she isn't producing enough milk or just doesn't care, I don't want to see kits go through the slow dying process that these ones went though.

Thanks for any shared experience or suggestions in advance :bunnyhop:

 

[michaels4gardens]

i have a 3 strikes policy--
often first time moms don't raise litters [often they do]
"mothering ability" is mostly genetic, if she fails a couple more times, and... she has a good nesting situation, ... and proper nutrition, and neither she or the kits are getting too hot... then, she needs to be culled, to make room better stock.

 

[Rainey]

Sorry you lost the whole litter--I find it really hard to have young kits die off that way and have had no success trying to feed kits by hand when the doe won't or can't. When a first time doe has kits on the wire but then raises the litter successfully, we rebreed and she usually uses the nest box the second time around. When a doe doesn't feed a litter, we don't rebreed her. We did once, in our early days, and the second litter she kindled 11 and just 4 survived. (None of the first litter survived to leave the nest) After that, failure to feed the kits meant that doe was culled.
We bred that does 2 sisters and both were good mothers and we bred one for 3 years and the other for 5 so I wouldn't assume that the sister would fail to raise her litter.
That's our experience and our decision--hope it helps you figure out what you want to do. And hoping the other doe kindles and feeds her kits.

 

[minibackyardfarmer]

Sorry you lost the whole litter--I find it really hard to have young kits die off that way and have had no success trying to feed kits by hand when the doe won't or can't. When a first time doe has kits on the wire but then raises the litter successfully, we rebreed and she usually uses the nest box the second time around. When a doe doesn't feed a litter, we don't rebreed her. We did once, in our early days, and the second litter she kindled 11 and just 4 survived. (None of the first litter survived to leave the nest) After that, failure to feed the kits meant that doe was culled.
We bred that does 2 sisters and both were good mothers and we bred one for 3 years and the other for 5 so I wouldn't assume that the sister would fail to raise her litter.
That's our experience and our decision--hope it helps you figure out what you want to do. And hoping the other doe kindles and feeds her kits.

We are hoping she (sister) kindles here in a few days. She got the nestbox sat. Since it's getting a little cooler here (ohio) I lined the nestbox (we did the dropdown nest box style since we have flemish crosses (standard flamish not giants and found it hard with the litter from our one doe staying in the nestbox that was sat inside) with some cardboard strips of paper then the hay for nesting material. Ceylon (sister to freckles) has already done way more then her sister. She has fluffed the nesting material (I had it backed tight to make sure i got enough in just incase she was going to pull eating the hay too like her sister), hasn't ate any of it other then maybe whats at the top (i've noticed its the harder stuff always), and haven't seen any hair pulled yet but she still has a few days plus don't know 100% if she lifted enough to get caught (we did the whole leave her with the buck thing the person we got them from suggested cuz they said her mom is that way if you are standing there and normally only lifts in the evening).

Fingers crossed... cuz i don't want to go through what i did with the 2 kits we were trying to hand feed (they still wanted nothing to do with the bottle only mom) as they didn't make it and they were getting to the point wanting to climb into your hand and curl up to sleep.

I have learned from searching the forum what a kit looks like full and what the look like not feed. Sadly I noticed after a few days a few of them started to look like they had loose skin and a few were looking full. But I didn't know what I know now. So hopefully if that happens again with any doe we can catch it early so no kit has to suffer (I'm assuming the did) like our first kit set did.