New Member here, need some help - skinny rabbits!

[bo_murphy]

Hello, my name is Bo. I have been attempting to raise rabbits for about a year. I seem to have developed some sort of disease in my rabbitry and I'm hoping that someone here can help.

* I have Californians, NZWs and Flemmish Giants
* At this point I don't have any rabbits less than 7 mo old, 18 total

* Approximately half my herd is very, very thin. I'm talking you can feel spine, hip bones, shoulder blades - No meat on their bones. Others are starting to show signs of the same
* The rabbits that are very thin also have what I would call a pot belly. It may be because of the loss of meat on them that it seems that way
* I know that rabbits hide their sicknesses very well, but mine all act fine. Not lethargic at all, very energetic
* They all eat every bit of their food every day, and seem to want more. They always have plenty of clean water
* I have not seen any signs of diarrhea. Droppings look normal
* I started noticing the weight loss over the last month. I thought it was because of switching over to a different feed (which I did gradually) but I know another rabbitry that switched to the same feed and it's been okay for them
* This has been gradually happening over the last month. All rabbits seem fine, other than the weight loss, and none have died as a result of whatever this is
* I am wondering if they don't have some sort of stomach parasite, that is robbing them of the nutrition of their feed

Can anybody here shed some light as to what I'm dealing with. Don't hold back; if it looks grim, just say so. I am in search of real answers and I want to help my rabbits. Thanks - Bo

 

[TwoAcreDream]

Hi and welcome

I would be switching back to the feed you were using.
Are they cleaning it up the same ?
It maybe not the same quality.

Any other changes, besides the feed ?

 

[bo_murphy]

Hey, thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I did switch back to the other feed. It's purina PRO pellets. They always ate both feeds fine, but I think the purina is the better feed so I will sticking with it from now on. Both feeds have the same nutritional values though.

No other changes besides the feed

 

[Dood]

How are they housed? Individual cages? Colony?

Are you feeding any hay or fresh foods?

Do you have any rodents or birds that can get at the rabbit cages, their food or water?

It sounds like a parasite to me. I would recommend you butcher one of the worst ones and carefully inspect the organs for disease.

 

[KKRabbitry]

Have you wormed them lately?
Or treated for coxy?
What your describing sounds like some kind of parasite infestation. I second what Dood suggested, butcher one and check for internal issues/parasites.

* I started noticing the weight loss over the last month. I thought it was because of switching over to a different feed (which I did gradually) but I know another rabbitry that switched to the same feed and it's been okay for them

Just because a certain feed works for another rabbitry, does not mean it will work for yours. You will hear a lot of people say that such and such a feed is terrible, or that such and such a feed is the best. But in reality, whatever feed WORKS for you is what is best. If it's not broke don't fix it is my philosophy....so if your rabbits are in good condition, healthy, growing, and producing normally on a certain feed, there is no reason to switch to another.

Also I don't know what the weather is like where you are, but this winter has been really hard on rabbits all around. It could be that they are having to burn a ton of extra calories to stay warm. This time of year the winter really starts to take it's toll on animals, even horses/cows can start to look thin this time of year. Maybe consider adding a some black oil sunflower seeds to give them some extra protein/fat might not be a bad idea.
Also do you feed any hay or fresh veggies?

:welcome: Welcome to RT by the way!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

:welcomewagon:

Hi Bo,

welcome to RabbitTalk!

At this point I don't really have anything to add. The ideas posted so far are where I would start. The only thing that hasn't been mentioned is wool block, but unless everyone is going through a massive molt, I wouldn't expect that to be a herd-wide problem.

If you do a necropsy on one, make sure to take lots of photographs so we can help you evaluate them. It is best if you can remove all of the organs from the body cavity and spread them out so we can get a good view of them. Pay particular attention to the liver, kidneys, heart, lungs, cecum and intestines.

I hope we can help you figure out the problem!

 

[Ramjet]

It sounds like a parasite to me. I would recommend you butcher one of the worst ones and carefully inspect the organs for disease.

I agree with Dood .... First thing I thought of was a parasite of some kind.

 

[BlueMoods]

I agree parasites and resulting malnutrition or, less likely just malnutrition (or rodents stealing the feed from the rabbits) A necopsy with photos will help us sort this out with you.

 

[bo_murphy]

Thanks to everyone for all of your replies! I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

Moving forward, if it is a parasite, how do I go about treating my herd to get rid of it? Can the rabbits even be treated?

Thanks - Bo <br /><br /> -- Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:44 am -- <br /><br /> Also, to answer a few of the other questions:


All of the rabbits are in individual cages, suspended from the ceiling.

There is no possible way for anything to steal their feed from them. Most of the time, I am working around the rabbitry while they are eating and I see them eating.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I have never wormed them or treated them for parasites, because I simply didn't know that I had to do that.

Again, thanks for all the help

 

[Dood]

You need to know what parasite it is in order to properly worm them since no one wormer is effective against all species.

If you don't want to butcher one and inspect the organs then you can submit a fresh fecal sample to a vet and they can check for which parasites, if any, are in your rabbits and which drug to use to eradicate them.

Since your rabbits are housed individually in hanging cages and not exposed to wildelife feces it is odd that they all have the same symptoms. Usually one or two rabbits are more susceptible to the disease and perhaps it is not a parasite but a more contagious organism such as a bacteria or virus, or it could be the food :shrug:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Re-reading your post, I do have more to add now...

* They all eat every bit of their food every day, and seem to want more.

How much are you giving them per day? Depending on body condition (not too fat) I feed my rabbits enough that there is a little bit of feed left in their J-feeders when I feed again. They could simply be not getting enough food to maintain their condition, especially if it is cold.

Flemish build their bone before flesh, and take longer to reach full weight, so they especially might still need to be free fed.

You can also offer them some BOSS (Black Oil Sunflower Seeds) which are high in fat. Start with about one teaspoon per animal, gradually working up to a tablespoon or two each per day.

They always have plenty of clean water

What kind of water system do you use? If they are on anything aside from water crocks, they may be having trouble getting enough to drink. Check all valves to be sure they are not clogged.

I have one stem valve type that requires a vent hole in the bottle otherwise once a certain amount of water is consumed it creates a vacuum and no longer dispenses water.

If you aren't already using crocks, I would offer them at least until their condition improves.

* The rabbits that are very thin also have what I would call a pot belly.

I would give them some probiotics in case their gut flora is out of balance. I use Manna Pro's Jump-Start Plus, which is a paste available at feed stores like Tractor Supply Company. I have also used a powdered probiotic (I have it for our horses) sprinkled on grain.

Sorry if this sounds stupid, but I have never wormed them or treated them for parasites, because I simply didn't know that I had to do that.

Of course it doesn't sound stupid! Caged rabbits rarely get parasites unless it is coming from a food source. If you feed hay or wild harvested greens they may have ingested the eggs.

Last year I had cases of pinworms and tapeworm cysts in my rabbits because I was harvesting weeds from a local ranch that has a large population of wild cottontails and ground squirrels.

I did not medicate my herd (since most are used for meat) and since then I have processed a couple hundred rabbits, and have not seen a recurrence since I stopped feeding those items.

I would hesitate to worm them if you have seen no clear signs of worm infestation during butchering or necropsy. Most animals tolerate a small parasite load quite well. It is only when their immune systems are otherwise compromised that the parasites "take over" and cause severe weight loss and gastro-intestinal damage.

 

[bo_murphy]

I will choose the worst looking one and butcher him/her and post the pics here. Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this soon. Once we figure out what we are dealing with, how optimistic are you guys that I can save my herd? Thanks again - Bo

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I will choose the worst looking one and butcher him/her and post the pics here.

Take a photo of the rabbit while it is still alive as well, so we can see its current condition.

Once we figure out what we are dealing with, how optimistic are you guys that I can save my herd?

Since none of them have actually died yet, I think you have a very good chance. I am leaning toward them simply not getting enough feed or having parasites, both of which are easy enough to fix.

 

[bo_murphy]

How much are you giving them per day? Depending on body condition (not too fat) I feed my rabbits enough that there is a little bit of feed left in their J-feeders when I feed again. They could simply be not getting enough food to maintain their condition, especially if it is cold.

* I feed the mature NZW's and Flemish Giants 6-7 oz a day, and the others 4-5 oz a day. (Purina Pro) I haven't been giving hay free choice, but I do feed them alfalfa hay from a TSC bundle about twice a week. I did get a bail of hay from a local hay farm and that may have been what introduced the parasite to the herd. I live in Dothan Alabama and it has been unusually cold for here, so that may be part of the problem as well. Please advise about the way I am feeding them. They get fed once a day, in the evenings.

What kind of water system do you use? If they are on anything aside from water crocks, they may be having trouble getting enough to drink. Check all valves to be sure they are not clogged.

I have one stem valve type that requires a vent hole in the bottle otherwise once a certain amount of water is consumed it creates a vacuum and no longer dispenses water.

If you aren't already using crocks, I would offer them at least until their condition improves.

* Each cage just has an individual water bottle and nipple that I got from TSC. I always make sure to keep the same nipple with the same cage/rabbit when re-filling the bottles every day. I don't know what crocks are but I will google it

I would give them some probiotics in case their gut flora is out of balance. I use Manna Pro's Jump-Start Plus, which is a paste available at feed stores like Tractor Supply Company. I have also used a powdered probiotic (I have it for our horses) sprinkled on grain.

* This is a good idea, I will pick some up


Thanks

-- Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:14 am --

I will choose the worst looking one and butcher him/her and post the pics here.

Take a photo of the rabbit while it is still alive as well, so we can see its current condition.

Once we figure out what we are dealing with, how optimistic are you guys that I can save my herd?

Since none of them have actually died yet, I think you have a very good chance. I am leaning toward them simply not getting enough feed or having parasites, both of which are easy enough to fix.

Thanks Mama

 

[MamaSheepdog]

* I feed the mature NZW's and Flemish Giants 6-7 oz a day, and the others 4-5 oz a day.

In that case, hold off on the butchering.

The general rule of thumb is 1 ounce (by weight NOT volume) per pound of rabbit per day. They are most likely underfed. I would free feed them and see if they start putting on weight for you.

Instead of relying on the above formula, you should always adjust feed according to body condition. Some rabbits are "easy keepers" and eat less, others need more. I like to run my hand over the back of the rabbit periodically. The spine should feel like gently rounded bumps. If it is spiky, they are underweight. If you can't feel it, they are overweight.

I don't know what crocks are but I will google it

Crocks are just water bowls. You might want to use them temporarily since some rabbits will drink just enough from a bottle to keep from dehydration because they take more effort than drinking from a bowl. The more they drink, the more they will eat.

I would still get the probiotic paste since they are pot bellied. Additionally, I would also recommend giving them Simethicone drops or Gas-X strips for gas.

 

[BlueMoods]

It's cold in this part of the country now, the rabbits need extra calories for keeping warm out there. They burn calories to keep warm, like any outside animal will do. What you feed is fine for most of the year but, this near and sub freezing weather means they need more feed. Double it, feed morning and evening. Add probiotics, and free feed hay or, alfalfa cubes meant for horses (safer than hay you are not sure about.) I'd also add some fresh garlic. I medium clove per rabbit per day (it's a mild natural anti parasitic.)

I'm not a fan of water bottles, they don't usually work the best. Put crocks in for water or, a gravity flow automatic system with the better nibbler valve for the rabbits. Under 50.00 to do a water system for 10 cages. (That's nibblers, tubing, 5 gallon bucket and, connectors.)

 

[bo_murphy]

Okay, again thanks for the replies. What Mama said about measuring feed by weight and not volume is probably where a lot of my issue is coming from. I have been using a measuring cup for fluid oz, which I didn't realize. My wife actually pointed that out when she read Mama's post. I just simply didn't know the difference. Like BlueMoods said, the amount of feed I have been giving them may have been just enough for most months, but with the last two months of super cold weather it's caught up to them.

I will definitely hold off on butchering one of them and keep their feeders filled up for a while, as well as implement several other suggestions you guys had.

How quickly should I expect to see some good weight gain going with a combination of free choice feed and alfalfa hay, and using crocks to water with? I'll also get some probiotics from TSC, and I'll try the garlic as well

Thanks guys and gals, I'm feeling better about this situation now

 

[BlueMoods]

You should see some weight going on them in 10 to 14 days and, if nothing else is wrong, I'd give them 4-8 weeks to really start looking good again and, about 12-16 weeks to get back to breeding condition.

I free feed hay and pellets when it's this cold. Once it gets to where it isn't going below 40 at night, I ration them again. I'd rather have them get a little fat and do well in the cold than to have scrawny rabbits out there. I also start increasing the rations again Oct. 1, and am free feeding by the time the real cold hits. Fat rabbits don't mind the cold one bit.

Of course that means come spring they have to be rationed and thinned a bit so the heat isn't so bad for them. Then frozen water bottles for them once it gets to 85 or above, and no pregnant does at 80 or above, heat will kill a rabbit faster than cold will.

Good luck and, I think your rabbits will do fine with more feed.

 

[bo_murphy]

Hey guys and gals, I'm not sure if anyone is going to read this update, but here goes.

We're 9 days in to giving our rabbits free choice feed, along with a little alfalfa here and there, and they are looking much, much better. I think given another couple of weeks at this rate and they will be back to normal. I will definitely be waiting at least a couple months for breeding, to let them fully recooperate. Thanks so much for all of your help - Bo

 

[Miss M]

That's wonderful! :bouncy: If it was a parasite issue, they could eat and eat and eat, and it would never be enough, and they would never get any fatter. Sounds like they just needed the extra feed.

It doesn't get so cold here that I free-feed in the winter. Lots of nights in the 30s, some in the 20s (mostly upper), and an occasional night or two in the teens. But the buns definitely need more to eat when it's cold. In the summer, sometimes it seems like they're all on a hunger strike, barely eating anything because of the heat. It usually lasts only a day or two.

For our first couple of summers, we did ice bottles for the bunnies when it hit 90*. I think it was a post by Ladysown that made me reconsider it. Not that there's anything wrong with them having ice bottles. Just that if they are used to having them, and you happen to be away when the temperature spikes and they don't get the ice, they may not be resilient enough to handle the heat. She (or whoever it was) said she doesn't give ice bottles unless it hits 100*.

I had already had a couple of stressful days when I was out and couldn't get ice to the bunnies, and rushed home to see if they had died. I finished out that summer with the ice bottles, but I didn't bring them out the next summer. The rabbits did fine, and I haven't used them since. We hit 100* about as often as we hit the teens... not much. Mostly upper 80s to upper 90s, with high humidity. We do have a fan in the rabbitry, and it is well-ventilated.

<br /><br /> -- Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:40 am -- <br /><br /> I have added "skinny rabbits" to your title, as specific titles help make the forum more user-friendly.