My herd (I'm a newbie :D ) Help me figure out genetics

[TerriG]

We mentioned to a guy at church that we wanted to get into meat rabbits and he told us he was going to pay it forward. He had been given 2 does that were basically feral and they were pg. When we were ready, he gave us 2 pg does. I had never even petted a rabbit before this! The 2 that he gave us are mother and daughter and are Chestnut Agoudi's (Mother is Wheezy and Daughter is Cookie). Most of what I have learned about their genetics is stuff that I learned here We have now bought stock from a breeder in the next town over. I can't believe the difference in the fur quality and body type when I look at the Agoudi mutts verses the stock we bought from the breeder.

Anyway, we now have a Palomino buck named Thumper. We know from the breeder that he carries the satin gene, but does not have satin fur. We also have another buck from her, but he is a different blood line. He is black with white flecks (guard hairs), and is named Shadow. We know that he has Checkered Giant in him as his Mom was on site. He is a big boy. We were told that he also carries the Satin gene. We also bought a Palomino doe from her and named her Ruby. Our 4th doe looks like a Palomino with some seal points, but in doing research, I think she is a Cinnamon. That is definitely what her markings are. Her name is Fern.

Since the first 2 does came to us pg, we really didn't count those kits for learning about their genetics. Now that we have a few litter under our belts, we are learning some interesting things.

We did a breeding of Wheezy (Chestnut Agoudi) to Thumper (Palomino) and came up with 3 Tan (Pals?), 1 Chin, 1 Black Silver Marten, and ... a BEW! These kits were born on 10/22. We lost one of the tan on the wire at 3 days old. We only have 3 surviving kits from this litter as Wheezy seems to have a problem with kits that develop enteritis. We have a tan, the BEW, and the Marten still. The BEW did get enteritis, but after reading on here, I pulled him out and only fed him oats and hay and got him turned around. We did lose the chin and a tan. We also had to put down her kit from her first litter b/c of enteritis too. We are watching her closely to decide if we should cull her.

We also did a breeding of Cookie (Chestnut Agoudi) to Shadow (our black buck). Those kits were born on 11/26, so their fur is still filling in. It looks like we have 1 Tan, 2 Blacks, and 2 Agoudis.

We did a breeding of Fern (Cinnamon) to Thumper (Palomino) and she kindled on 11/28. It looks like we have 1 Cinnamon, 2 Tan (Pal's?), and one that is white. I suspect another BEW, but since their eyes aren't open yet, I really can't tell.

So after getting 1 BEW from a pairing that involved Thumper and Wheezy, they have to both carry the Vienna gene. Now I have another white kit from Thumper and Fern (Cinnamon) so that means Fern has to carry it too, right?

Since these are meat rabbits, the coat genetics don't matter as much, but my 12 year old ds wants to learn to tan hides and make stuff. So although we are raising them for meat, the coats are a secondary benefit.

 

[ZRabbits]

Sorry, didn't see this thread when I asked what breed you had in your intro thread. It's nice to have a variety of rabbits. Palominos are lovely rabbits. Also have a big Flemish myself. Really neat to have such a big rabbit around.

So sorry to hear of the loss of some of Wheezy's kits. Congratulations on getting the BEW to pull through.

Congratulations on Cookie and Fern's kindling. Wishing you all the luck with the popples. Would love to see pics.

Good your your daughter and her wish to learn to tan. Several of the members here do tan hides. Wishing her all the success.

Karen

 

[TerriG]

These are our 2 mutt rabbits. I am calling them Chestnut Agoudi (am I correct?)
Here is our Doe-Wheezy

Here is our Doe-Cookie (Wheezy's daughter)

Here is the info from the breeder that we bought from. The rest of our rabbits are from her.

"These bucks come from two bloodlines: The first is a satin rabbit line crossed with some checkered giant and silver martin lines for extra size. These rabbits grow to 11 to 13 pounds. They average 8 or 9 babies per litter, and are all black, with fur that has the satin sheen.

The second bloodline is a high-production line. The mothers of these rabbits had litters of 9 and 15 babies this season--first litters-- and are good mothers. This bloodline has an average litter size of 12, and often the does can keep 12 babies alive. (fifteen requires some fostering.) These rabbits are primarily from the satin breed, with the compact, high meat-to-bone ration of satin rabbits. They are all palomino colored, and do not have the satin fur."

This is our Buck-Thumper (Palomino?)

This is our Buck-Shadow (Checkered Giant+Silver Martin=Mom/?? on Dad genetics)

This is our Doe-Ruby (Palomino?)

This is our Doe-Fern (Cinnamon?)

I will have to get some pictures of kits posted later.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I am thinking you did not get BEW's but frostys. The reason being there is no way that two totally different meat lines would actually be carrying the vienna gene without at least SOME snippet of white somewhere on them. Number two you are dealing with agouti and Non extension agouti in your reds and non extension self in your tort doe. You mentioned getting chinchillas and silver martins, now if your red and chin gene match up then you are going to get frostys which is basically a red/tan rabbit with the chinchilla gene present.The chin gene suppresses ALL red/tan pigments, it is not able to be expressed.So you would get a basically white rabbit with darker eyes. Any smut present would still show as black on the tips but smut is not present in a clean red.Interesting that you got tan patterns, they would be hiding in your agouti does genotype. The black buck is self so is recessive to otter/tan and it could show up then. Eventually if you breed the kits from your second batch of rabbits together you will also start to get that satin gene showing up as it is recessive and needs two satin genes to express itself. Good luck you have some nice healthy looking rabbits there with awesome litters and mothering skills!

 

[TerriG]

K, here's some pics of kits.

These are Thumper+Wheezy (3 surviving kits) born 10/22/12

and here is one of the whole litter when they were younger, just to give you an idea of the different colors we got.

Here are Thumper+Fern born 11/28/12. This is Fern's first litter. As you can tell, they are well fed

Here are Cookie+Shadow born 11/26/12

<br /><br />__________ Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:51 pm __________<br /><br />

I am thinking you did not get BEW's but frostys. The reason being there is no way that two totally different meat lines would actually be carrying the vienna gene without at least SOME snippet of white somewhere on them. Number two you are dealing with agouti and Non extension agouti in your reds and non extension self in your tort doe. You mentioned getting chinchillas and silver martins, now if your red and chin gene match up then you are going to get frostys which is basically a red/tan rabbit with the chinchilla gene present.The chin gene suppresses ALL red/tan pigments, it is not able to be expressed.So you would get a basically white rabbit with darker eyes. Any smut present would still show as black on the tips but smut is not present in a clean red.Interesting that you got tan patterns, they would be hiding in your agouti does genotype. The black buck is self so is recessive to otter/tan and it could show up then. Eventually if you breed the kits from your second batch of rabbits together you will also start to get that satin gene showing up as it is recessive and needs two satin genes to express itself. Good luck you have some nice healthy looking rabbits there with awesome litters and mothering skills!

I think I get what you are saying, but ...

The eyes are definitely blue.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

These are our 2 mutt rabbits. I am calling them Chestnut Agoudi (am I correct?)
Here is our Doe-Wheezy

Wheezy is Agouti or Chestnut...these both mean the same thing...

Here is our Doe-Cookie (Wheezy's daughter)

Cookie is also Agouti or Chestnut...

Here is the info from the breeder that we bought from. The rest of our rabbits are from her.

"These bucks come from two bloodlines: The first is a satin rabbit line crossed with some checkered giant and silver martin lines for extra size. These rabbits grow to 11 to 13 pounds. They average 8 or 9 babies per litter, and are all black, with fur that has the satin sheen.

The second bloodline is a high-production line. The mothers of these rabbits had litters of 9 and 15 babies this season--first litters-- and are good mothers. This bloodline has an average litter size of 12, and often the does can keep 12 babies alive. (fifteen requires some fostering.) These rabbits are primarily from the satin breed, with the compact, high meat-to-bone ration of satin rabbits. They are all palomino colored, and do not have the satin fur."

This is our Buck-Thumper (Palomino?)

This is our Buck-Shadow (Checkered Giant+Silver Martin=Mom/?? on Dad genetics)

This is our Doe-Ruby (Palomino?)

This is our Doe-Fern (Cinnamon?)

Fern looks like a Tort to me...

I will have to get some pictures of kits posted later.

<br /><br />__________ Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:21 pm __________<br /><br />

 

[TerriG]

Thank you OAF. I thought Agoudi was the type of coloring (wild rabbit), but that it comes in different colors (ie: Chestnut, Chocolate, etc). Guess I was wrong

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Thank you OAF. I thought Agoudi was the type of coloring (wild rabbit), but that it comes in different colors (ie: Chestnut, Chocolate, etc). Guess I was wrong

Well, yes, and no....looking at the genotypes..(what the rabbit is genetically)

Agouti or Chestnut is the Pattern within colored areas
A = agouti (ring pattern on hair shaft, ex. Castor)
at = tan (ex. Otter)
a = solid (ex. Black)

Chocolate, etc is the actual Base color
B = black
b = chocolate

Make sense? If not, it's ok....I have a hard time making sense of it myself... :lol:

 

[skysthelimit]

You know that chins carry blue eyes? I have self chins, with a motled blue gray eyes, chins with blue, brown and gray eyes. Most of my chins have gray eyes, not brown, and that is permissible in chins. That blue eye still might not be Vienna.

Is it also possible that the Vienna markings are hid under agouti markings? Perhaps on the part of the agoutis where the color would be white anyway?

 

[TerriG]

Anything is possible, especially since I know so little I was so surprised at the first white kit, and downright SHOCKED when this new one started growing in white. That was definitely not something I was expecting. All of my rabbits have some white on them, so I don't even know what would be considered "normal" and what would be vienna markings.

My black buck has the least, his is just more of the guard hairs like the Martens have. I was told by the breeder that if we bred a black buck to our agoudi does, we would get chins. We have only gotten one chin and it was from a breeding that didn't involve our black buck. I would love a bunch of chin pelts.

Dh has decided if we end up getting a buck and a doe out of these 2 white kits, he wants to keep them and grow them out. If they are BEW, we would only get BEW's, right? If they are something else, what would we get?

See, my head is spinning again.

 

[skysthelimit]

Anything is possible, especially since I know so little I was so surprised at the first white kit, and downright SHOCKED when this new one started growing in white. That was definitely not something I was expecting. All of my rabbits have some white on them, so I don't even know what would be considered "normal" and what would be vienna markings.

My black buck has the least, his is just more of the guard hairs like the Martens have. I was told by the breeder that if we bred a black buck to our agoudi does, we would get chins. We have only gotten one chin and it was from a breeding that didn't involve our black buck. I would love a bunch of chin pelts.

Dh has decided if we end up getting a buck and a doe out of these 2 white kits, he wants to keep them and grow them out. If they are BEW, we would only get BEW's, right? If they are something else, what would we get?

See, my head is spinning again.

black cannot carry chin, chin is an agouti and dominant. if you were to get chins from a black, it would have to be a self chin, and the eyes would usually be a motled gray/black.

You would only get BEW if the doe and buck both carry BEW.

 

[ZRabbits]

Lovely Rabbits! Don't feel bad about the "spinning" affect color genetics can bring on. It makes my head spin you, but silly me, keep going back to it because it's just interesting to learn.

Fern could be a tort. She has the tort markings. I have a Blue Tort Lion Head, which blue is a dilute of black. Same type markings. But could see why you thought Cinnamin. Doesn't Cinnamin have to be a certain weight?

And also you will find that some colors are called different names with different breeds.

Karen

 

[TerriG]

We got Fern from the same breeder that we got our Palominos and our Black buck from. She just referred to her as a "Palomino with seal type markings". As I was researching the Palominos, I came across the Cinnamons and wondered if the cross that she had done had resulted in a Cinnamon rather than her usual Palomino. In reality, it doesn't matter to me if she is a Tort or a Cinnamon. I still like her markings. I think 2 of her kits have her markings. I'm just interested in figuring it all out.

Idk if Cinnamon needs to be a certain weight. I have never weighed my rabbits, but they are bricks. They are solid animals. I need to get a scale. I just have a small digital kitchen scale (works well for weighing them all dressed out) or a bathroom scale.

 

[3mina]

I use a cheap flat digital kitchen scale I can put a box on it and zero it so I just get the rabbits weight

 

[OneAcreFarm]

She just referred to her as a "Palomino with seal type markings".

I don't think purebred Palomino comes in "seal type markings"...she is likely a Palomino cross...

 

[TerriG]

I don't think purebred Palomino comes in "seal type markings"...she is likely a Palomino cross...

Sorry, guess I'm not explaining my thoughts well. Couldn't have anything to do with my 3 year old that just want to "see pictures of the waddits" :?

That's exactly what I meant. That's why I wondered if the cross had ended up creating a Cinnamon. Can't remember if I ever figured out what breeds created the Cinnamon breed.[/quote]

 

[ZRabbits]

A Californian and Checkered Giant started the Cinnamon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_rabbit

Karen

 

[-HRanchito]

Thank you OAF. I thought Agoudi was the type of coloring (wild rabbit), but that it comes in different colors (ie: Chestnut, Chocolate, etc). Guess I was wrong

You're kinda right - agouti comes in black, chocolate, blue, and lilac. If you say just "agouti," everyone is going to assume black-agouti. Chestnut also means black agouti. The other terms are "Chocolate agouti", "opal" = blue agouti, and "lynx" = lilac agouti

(Then there is a whole range of red/fawn/cream etc when you have the wideband gene too, and then the chin combinations :explode: )

The terms do vary based on the breed of rabbit, though, but they work for angoras at least.

 

[skysthelimit]

Try to think of agouti like a pattern (plaid as an example) that comes in different colors.