My First Purebred Litter

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Buknee

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unless the lines carry blue.... I'd question the blue tort. Just looks like a higher rufus tort to me.

What colours are in the pedigrees?
It does: Harlequinized Castor, Black/Orange Tri, Broken Castor, Blue Otter, Lilac, Blue
 

Buknee

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My purebred litter is now 4 weeks old. Hershey has been an excellent mother. All 6 babies are thriving and super cute.
Here are some more pictures of the kit who's color is in question....20221126_124442.jpg 20221126_124459.jpg 20221126_124535.jpg 20221126_124551.jpg
 

judymac

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I agree, this is definitely a broken tort. Torts (short for tortoiseshell) are non-agouti (aa) self-colored rabbits with the fawn non-extension ee recessive. The orange covers the body, but the black/chocolate (B- or bb) still shows through at the points (nose, ears, feet, tail--the places that are furthest from the body and thus cooler than the rest). Depending on whether the rabbit also has dense color D- or the paler diluted color recessive dd, the points will be either be:
  • Black aa B- C- D- ee
  • Chocolate aa bb C- D- ee
  • Blue aa B- C- dd ee
  • Lilac aa bb C- dd ee
Whenever you see a broken rabbit with a fawn/orange/red/cream body, but the ears and nose are a darker shade, you know you have a broken tort. The next thing to do is to determine what the ear/nose color is. A black tort will have dark gray to black on the ears, blue torts have blue. (lighter gray than black) chocolate torts have medium chocolate brown, and lilac torts have lilac (lighter beige-brown than chocolate). Also, in the dilute colors (blue and lilac), the body color also tends to be paler.

You can see some of these colors at Angora Rabbit Colors and Holland Lop Color Guide — Hickory Ridge Hollands

Black torts often have gray but not full black points, some breeds more so than others. I can see why there is so much debate about this kit, as some photos look chocolate, others black-based, and since the points are not pure black, could be considered blue. I truly can't tell which from here, but it appears the lacing around the ear is indeed black, and I'd guess broken black tort, just a guess. What this rabbit does not appear to be is a tricolor. Tricolor is specifically a broken harlequin. This rabbit only has color on the points, like a tort, not in scattered patches like a harlie. Torts are not the same as harlequins, even though they do both have fawn and color separated on the body. When you see a kit you think might be a tricolor, look for the harlequin pattern in patches other than the points. A broken harlequin is properly called a tricolor, a broken tortoiseshell is simply a broken tort. There's a lot of broken torts out there with 'tricolor' on their pedigree, you have to look close to see where the color patterning is found to see if they truly are a broken harlequin tricolor, or just a broken tort (both of which are lovely, I have both and love them.)

 

Buknee

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Okay all, I phoned a friend and neither of us can figure this kit out.
Can someone please shed some light on her coloring? Thank you!Red1.jpg Red3.jpg Red01.jpg Red2.jpg
 
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I also agree - it's broken red. The excessive scattered white hairs could be just that, excessive scattered white hairs, or there could possibly by some silver in the background. I'd go with scattered white hairs, though, as it's an issue in some lines of brokens.
The pale undercolor is probably just that, too. Reds, as non-extenion castors, can be tricky to get just right. But I love the depth of the rufus factor in this bunny and the lack of smut on the ears and body.
 
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So she is considered red, not orange?
Rex are classified as red rather than orange, so there's that. Which is not to say you couldn't have an orange rex.
But red is a different color than orange, genetically. An orange is a non-extension chestnut (or castor) <A_B_C_D_ee>, while a red is a non-extension chesnut which additonally carries two wideband genes <A_B_C_D_ee ww> The wideband genes extend the orange middle band, which spreads the color over more of the hairshaft.
I have seen evidence that the wideband gene is not entirely recessive, so a red could have only one. It would probably not be as deep a color, though.
Usually a breed of rabbit is accepted in either red (e.g. rex) or orange (e.g. Netherland Dwarf), but at least one breed, the Holland Lop, is accepted in both varieties.
 

judymac

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I sure wish someone could explain the cause of this 'snowball' effect, where the color is lovely on the outer part of the hairshaft but then goes down to white quickly. The fawn/orange/reds seem to have it the most, but I've also had it in blacks, chocolate, chestnut (castor if you're not an angora) and harlequin. Some have as little of 1/4" of color at the tips, and the rest of the hairshaft white. They call these rabbits with the extreme white band "snowballs". Looks like this rabbit is about half and half, color and white. I assume there is some sort of modifier, but perhaps it is a relic of the 'ee' non-extension, even in non-fawn rabbits? I've had New Zealand Reds without a smidge of white on them, so it's not just that all reds have this issue. Any clues as to why this happens, and how to eliminate it from the herd?
 

MuddyFarms

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I sure wish someone could explain the cause of this 'snowball' effect, where the color is lovely on the outer part of the hairshaft but then goes down to white quickly. The fawn/orange/reds seem to have it the most, but I've also had it in blacks, chocolate, chestnut (castor if you're not an angora) and harlequin. Some have as little of 1/4" of color at the tips, and the rest of the hairshaft white. They call these rabbits with the extreme white band "snowballs". Looks like this rabbit is about half and half, color and white. I assume there is some sort of modifier, but perhaps it is a relic of the 'ee' non-extension, even in non-fawn rabbits? I've had New Zealand Reds without a smidge of white on them, so it's not just that all reds have this issue. Any clues as to why this happens, and how to eliminate it from the herd?

Now I remember hearing about snowballs! Thank you for supplying us with the name for it.

I am curious about the snowball effect, now. @judymac I noticed some of your posts on RT about this topic, and have been reading though lots of threads. You mentioned seeing this in your herd, which includes angoras, right? Do you happen to have any pictures of the regular color vs the snowball variation in angoras? I’m really interested in the difference in look on the hair shaft.
 

judymac

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am curious about the snowball effect, now. @judymac I noticed some of your posts on RT about this topic, and have been reading though lots of threads. You mentioned seeing this in your herd, which includes angoras, right? Do you happen to have any pictures of the regular color vs the snowball variation in angoras? I’m really interested in the difference in look on the hair shaft.
This is a black self with the excess white:
1670782892038.png
Here's a sibling with better color. While the color does get lighter as it goes down the hairshaft, it still is gray, not white:
1670782780909.png
The goal is as much uniformity in color as possible. There are umbrous modifiers that intensify the depth of color, although I know little about them. Apparently, they come in positive and negative, multiple positives tend toward deeper color, multiple negatives toward pastel shades. This isn't dilute, the face colors are unchanged, just the main fiber hairshaft is affected. I used to have great depth, the gray fiber from my blues when spun was darker than many herd's blacks. Then I met someone with the palest of pastel shades, and fell in love with those delicate shades. It was different and gave me a greater range of yarn colors. But, it wasn't long before I had totally lost the deep, rich color in my kits, and had the washed-out colors entrenched in my genetics. That was decades ago, and I'm trying to breed back for depth of color. But lately, I've been encountering this white base color wandering high up the hairshaft, a different problem. Very frustrating.

This is apparently different from another type of snowball that is found in some dilute kits, where the color is restricted to the outer 1/8 to 1/4" of fur, but it is only in the newborn kit, when they molt they have a normal coat. I've not seen this type of snowball personally, and I don't believe the cause is known.

The excess white I'm dealing with is obviously genetic, I've traced it back four generations in the herd I bought a red buck from, which is why I suspect there may be something related to the ee fawn non-extension gene. The fawn genetics do have the white base color, and something must be moving the white base color up the hairshaft. Steel moves the dark base color up the hairshaft, leaving the middle fawn band on the tips. But this is leaving the normal tip color at the tip, so it isn't related to that.
 

MuddyFarms

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This is a black self with the excess white:
View attachment 33066
Here's a sibling with better color. While the color does get lighter as it goes down the hairshaft, it still is gray, not white:
View attachment 33065
The goal is as much uniformity in color as possible. There are umbrous modifiers that intensify the depth of color, although I know little about them. Apparently, they come in positive and negative, multiple positives tend toward deeper color, multiple negatives toward pastel shades. This isn't dilute, the face colors are unchanged, just the main fiber hairshaft is affected. I used to have great depth, the gray fiber from my blues when spun was darker than many herd's blacks. Then I met someone with the palest of pastel shades, and fell in love with those delicate shades. It was different and gave me a greater range of yarn colors. But, it wasn't long before I had totally lost the deep, rich color in my kits, and had the washed-out colors entrenched in my genetics. That was decades ago, and I'm trying to breed back for depth of color. But lately, I've been encountering this white base color wandering high up the hairshaft, a different problem. Very frustrating.

This is apparently different from another type of snowball that is found in some dilute kits, where the color is restricted to the outer 1/8 to 1/4" of fur, but it is only in the newborn kit, when they molt they have a normal coat. I've not seen this type of snowball personally, and I don't believe the cause is known.

The excess white I'm dealing with is obviously genetic, I've traced it back four generations in the herd I bought a red buck from, which is why I suspect there may be something related to the ee fawn non-extension gene. The fawn genetics do have the white base color, and something must be moving the white base color up the hairshaft. Steel moves the dark base color up the hairshaft, leaving the middle fawn band on the tips. But this is leaving the normal tip color at the tip, so it isn't related to that.

Thanks so much for the pictures and more information about this. It was definitely confusing to me when I saw the pictures of this bunny, because it seemed to mimic the lynx banding type a bit with the white being so prominent, and yet was red on the outside. Glad to know what it’s called, at least.
 

Buknee

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Okay Friends, another color question. This is the Sire to my Rex babies. His pedigree information states that he is a black/orange tricolor. Oranges make my head spin! Is this shade considered orange? It looks more brown to me.
Is Patterson really considered a b/o tri?
Thanks guys!
 

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