Mixed "pure"breds?

[Kyle@theWintertime]

So I was complaining to a friend that I'm having such a tough time finding a good Champagne buck...and how for the moment I'm using a very fine NZ buck to make meat mutts til I can locate a Champagne buck.

After some dialogue, she asked if I couldn't just breed for three generations to get the NZ off the pedigree, and claim them to all be Champagnes.

I rejected this idea out of hand as I don't like the feeling of making a "purebred" by mixing in another breed...but when I mentioned this to someone else, they told me they've done it (different breeds though), and that they did so to improve type and stuff.

Later in a community on FB someone had a litter of Champagnes from related parents, and some of the litter popped out looking like Californians. When they asked about it, they were told that there were recessives in there from where they'd crossed Californians into their lines.

So I'm curious what people's thoughts on this would be. I'm still leaning strongly towards the "I don't want to do that, I'll hold out for a Champagne buck" but I'm still curious!

 

[3mina]

The breeder I'm looking at for my Harlequins is improving body type by breeding in NZ and from things I've gathered from other threads it's pretty common to bring in traits that are lacking. The judge at the show was very complimentary about her improvements.

 

[ZRabbits]

With Lion heads, to improve on body type, ND's are used. The breeder that I got my DM LH's from has used ND's in her program to help with body type.

Some use Hollands, but I would stay away from that because the "lopped" ear" could show up in my herd.

Karen

 

[Southbound_SF]

Ugh, I know it's technically ok and sometimes even a good idea if a breed has serious faults (and of course to create new types), but I don't like it. Plus, doesn't it need to be three generations of rabbits that LOOK like Champagnes, and wouldn't those generations still need to be listed on the pedigrees as "Champagne cross" or the like? And if they don't breed true, well, I know I'd be mad at the person who sold me those supposed purebreds.

If there was something wrong with your Champagnes that the NZ could improve, that's one thing. But I think you've got the right idea in that lack of a buck isn't a good enough reason.

SB

 

[Peach]

Unless the gene pool is small (ex.Harlequin) then I think it would be worth finding a worthy buck. The harlequin markings alone are 80 points. Type is only 15ish. Because of this,they have many health problems,ears dont alternate correctly,legs...etc so ive seen a breeder outcrossing to NZR to get much needed type into the breed. Also, it was expanding the gene pool it desperately needs. Have you check the ARBA breeder group on Facebook? You can probably ask if someone has some on there.

 

[ZRabbits]

Ugh, I know it's technically ok and sometimes even a good idea if a breed has serious faults (and of course to create new types), but I don't like it. Plus, doesn't it need to be three generations of rabbits that LOOK like Champagnes, and wouldn't those generations still need to be listed on the pedigrees as "Champagne cross" or the like? And if they don't breed true, well, I know I'd be mad at the person who sold me those supposed purebreds.

If there was something wrong with your Champagnes that the NZ could improve, that's one thing. But I think you've got the right idea in that lack of a buck isn't a good enough reason.

SB

I asked that same question regarding ND's in her program. I didn't like mixing either until it was explained to me. Thankfully had a very honest breeder who explained that you must show on pedigrees the three generations (my LH's are four generations). That's why she lists her's as F1, F2, F3, etc. So that whoever is purchasing from her knows what they are actually getting and what's in their background.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

I have considered it to improve the Rexes, because everything we have over here is from the same gene pool, over and over again, and all I can get are the same relatives of the rabbits I have. Not sure what breed to make the cross to, and not sure what that would do to my fur texture.

 

[Random Rabbit]

First off, let me state that I am a Purist. I want my Palominos to be straight, "pure" Palomino. Our American Chins to be "pure" Am Chin... and my former Blanc de Hotots to be "pure" Blanc.

However... that does Not seem to actually be a given in this modern era. we have had some interesting 'sports' show up in all the breeds we work with ...past and present. And i have reached the point... that when a 'sport' or 'throwback' shows up... well... we make a note of it and move on. If it has Superior type...( not merely good...Has to be Superior ) then it might earn a place in the breeding herd for one try... if it does Not throw that Superior type...it leaves our herd.

I tend to believe that people cross all kinds of breeds together...Mainly cuz "they are Only rabbits.. and who is going to pour a bunch of money into them ?" A great many people either cannot or simply Will not travel the distances , nor spend the dollars necessary to purchase stock of the same breed they have.

Part two... there seems to be a mindset of 'gee, these are two cute bunnies...lets see what kind of young they will give.'.. and the Fuzzy Loopeared Lionhead Harlequin Rex breed is born......

part three.... Back in the late 1980s a highly respected ARBA president was quoted as saying he "would cross a polecat with a rabbit , if that would win on thw show table"... ( honesty report here... i have only heard the quote and have no way of verifying that the person Actually said this)

So, i'm willing to bet a shiny nickle that just about every breed has some cross breeding going on...and interesting things will pop out a future times. ( and it will Always be the nicest one of a litter that will show the throwback traits...its a Rule...# 509, i believe)


:bunnyhop:

 

[skysthelimit]

So, i'm willing to bet a shiny nickle that just about every breed has some cross breeding going on...and interesting things will pop out a future times. ( and it will Always be the nicest one of a litter that will show the throwback traits...its a Rule...# 509, i believe)


:bunnyhop:

which is probably how I got the shiny prominent guard hairs in my Rex lines, usually the best body type with brillo pad fur.

 

[uhurubuns]

You will notice that the standard pedigree form has no blank for BREED. All kinds of blanks for grand champion numbers, registration numbers... but not breed. I have had animals sold to me as purebred that turned out to have a grandparent that was a totally different breed, making the individual only 75%. I think it's okay to crossbreed, especially when stock is scarce- it's better than letting a breed go extinct- but I want to know.

That's why I modified the truth affidavit on my pedigrees to include: "every animal on this pedigree is the same breed as listed at the top of the page, unless noted otherwise." Then I give the TRUTH in the comment section I inserted at the bottom, usually a note about any genetic information I have on the animal like "chocolate carrier" or "there was a blue eyed white 5 generations ago, potential for vienna marking", or "rabbit x (an animal somewhere on the pedigree) was breed y". The standard truth affidavit is too much of a cop-out.

I don't think crossing is the problem, truthful documentation is the problem. Look at the Beverens- the original was blue, period. Then in England some whites just "happen" to pop up? After 50 years of purifying for blue? Riiiiigggght. But now white is an accepted variety. Sure would be nice to know where those whites came from, but nobody ever will. "Sports" covers many an indiscretion. I do not believe there is a single rabbit breed in the United States that is truly "pure".

 

[SatinsRule]

So I was complaining to a friend that I'm having such a tough time finding a good Champagne buck...and how for the moment I'm using a very fine NZ buck to make meat mutts til I can locate a Champagne buck.

After some dialogue, she asked if I couldn't just breed for three generations to get the NZ off the pedigree, and claim them to all be Champagnes.

I rejected this idea out of hand as I don't like the feeling of making a "purebred" by mixing in another breed...but when I mentioned this to someone else, they told me they've done it (different breeds though), and that they did so to improve type and stuff.

Later in a community on FB someone had a litter of Champagnes from related parents, and some of the litter popped out looking like Californians. When they asked about it, they were told that there were recessives in there from where they'd crossed Californians into their lines.

So I'm curious what people's thoughts on this would be. I'm still leaning strongly towards the "I don't want to do that, I'll hold out for a Champagne buck" but I'm still curious!

You'd be surprised at how common it is. One of the best-known white satin breeders in this country uses NZW's from time to time in order to improve type in his rabbits. The down side is that it also produces alot of rabbits with harsh texture to coat (which can be somewhat difficult to correct without introducing a rabbit from another bloodline). Still, breeders are all too willing to pay top dollar (starting at $200 per rabbit) to get his bloodlines. I bought my white satins from a breeder who had bought some from him, and they all have that bloodline in them.

 

[Honorine]

Rabbits are very plastic genetically, it doesn't take long to make them look like what you want them to if your smart. I've worked with a number of rare breeds, and some of them are so stagnant genetically that they need fresh genetic material. Some breeds were almost extinct, American Sables come to mind, there was only 7 left at one point, and they were all bucks. Some breeds have faults that are so prevalent that you can't find a rabbit that doesn't have it, only chance of improving on it is to cross out. Rabbits are shown by phenotype, not genotype, and sometimes you have to work with what you have. But you have to be smart about it, and try not to cross in any recessives that might pop up later.

 

[skysthelimit]

Some breeds have faults that are so prevalent that you can't find a rabbit that doesn't have it, only chance of improving on it is to cross out.

Rexes and long shoulders, especially on this side of the country.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Actually most of this "mixing" occurs because someone wants a different colour in the breed...which makes for a large pool of pet-quality rabbits. Very few, unfortunately, are actually doing it in a "professional" manner as a way of improving type or gene pool. Too many people are more concerned with what colour their rabbit is and nothing else.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Hmmm. Well, I'm going to try and re-breed both does (one didn't take, the other had no milk so the litter was lost) to the NZ buck and take a look at their kits' conformation. If they are really well put together (as good as or better than the show-quality Champagne doe) then I'll work towards breeding good proper Champagnes with an infusion of NZ. My buck is a pretty spectacular buck, btw... he's VERY nicely built.

Thanks for the info, guys, can't tell you how much I appreciate it.