low grade cocci?

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MatSuAK

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Contacted the breeder/mentor I got my Satins from about a doe that quit gaining weight at 6lbs and won't conceive, asking her advice. This was her response:

"Something else occurs to me while thinking about your doe not being a good eater and not growing as she should (6 pounds is *really* light; Snowcone was over 8 when she was returned as underweight). I never had sick rabbits, at all, until we started showing. Then this past year, we had several rounds of an undetermined illness that I have decided was coccidiosis. Some of our smaller mini rex even died from it this winter. At the last show, the judge was Eric Stewart (bigwig in the ARBA) and he noted some unthrifty coats and poor flesh condition on some of the rabbits including one of ours. He suggested an equine wormer paste, Safe-guard (fenbendazole), which as well as being good for pinworms (which I don’t believe we have here), is a coccidicide. He said he gives it to his rabbits 2-3 times a year whether they look sick or not, since a low-level coccidia problem may not show really obvious symptoms, it just makes the animals feel lousy and upsets their stomachs. You might try giving your doe a course of that. Just squirt a large pea-sized blob right into her mouth; all the rabbits really liked it and Stewart said it’s really safe and hard to give a toxic amount. You give two doses, one about a week after the first. In December I did it for all the rabbits in the barn, even the ones I was just weaning, and coincidentally or not I didn’t have any problem with diarrhea at all in that litter (I often have 1-2 bunnies per litter who briefly have diarrhea at weaning). I also have not had any trouble with rabbits going off their feed or condition since. I plan on using it 2-3 times a year like he suggested, and maybe it could help your doe, too."

My questions:
Is there anything I could look for while butchering my next litter that would show signs of a low grade cocci infection. I have looked at some of the pics on this forum and will keep an eye out for that sort of thing. Just curious about "slight" infections if there is such a thing? Any signs to look for in the poop?

The male I got from her also petered out at 7lbs after showing great promise. I now have a female mutt that is not recovering weight after her second litter of 5 kits, her first litter was 6 with no problems. I am not breeding intensely at all. Breeding does a couple weeks after being separated from litter. For these added reasons thinking this cocci thing might be a possibility.

Do I dose rabbits that I am going to butcher? How many weeks between dosage and butchering?
Any herbal remedies/preventative for cocci?

Any advice or opinions welcome! Thanks!
 
Most rabbits (in fact all animals) have low levels of coccidia that have no visable signs of infection. If your rabbits are boney and with poor coats then you have a more serious infection going on or nutritional deficiencies.

Diahhrea, spots on livers and white patches on the intestines are indications of coccidia. You cannot see them with the naked eye but a fecal float viewed under a microscope will reaveal them and the eggs of other parasites like pin worms.

Fenbendazole should be given 2 or 3 days in a row and repeated 10 days later.

Foods high in tannins are supposed to be a preventative and keeps the parasites in lower numbers.

It thought you said the bunnies you butchered in Dec. were fatty, this is contradictory to a parasitic infection, what is the nutritional content of the feed you use?

Did you notice any oddities during butchering?
 
The more I'm researching cocci the more it doesn't seem to match what's going on. Hmmm :?
 
Apparently fenbendazole is not very effective against coccidia but is recommended for giardia and pin worm infections.

Pin worms can be seen on poop in severe infections and in the intestines in moderate or mild cases.
 
Yes Dood, everyone so far has looked fat & happy that was sent to freezer camp. The adults look good to, just not great, and the two Satins are way smaller than their parents. They both did great on the show table as Juniors, and then they just quit growing??? The buck has sired 3 litters with my meat mutts so far, but the doe won't conceive.
We did butcher one 16 wk old bun on Feb 9th. This one was different only in that the stomach seemed bloated and there was a stink when we opened up the abdominal cavity. She hadn't been fed in 24hrs just like the others. Other than that she looked great. No spots, cysts, lumps, nothing that we saw.

18% protein feed 3/4 cup, called Alaska Mill & Feed's Show Rabbit Pellets, fat 2.7%, fiber not more than 14.7%, added Vitamin C. Ingredients- Alfafa, Barley, Soybean Meal, Whole Oats, Corn, Yeast, etc.
Started 1tsp rolled oats with 1/2 tsp BOSS 3 days ago as this was the breeders original suggestion. Unlimited hay, willow and poplar branches, lots of greens during the summer, not as much now.
 
I haven't seen Enterotoxemia mentioned much on this site, but your symptoms, including losing kits to diarrhea, poor coat and enlarged cecum, fit the description in my copy of Rabbit Production.
 
I'm not sure about the doe and her lack of appetite, but before medicating the herd, I would up their feed and see if that helps. I primarily raise Rex, and have recently gotten into Satins. I have noticed that Satins eat a LOT. So much, in fact, that I have taken to free feeding them.

When my Satin breeder/mentor first came up to help me evaluate my Rex herd and I showed her how much I fed them (about 1oz by weight per lb.) she commented that her Satins would "tear through the cage" if she fed them that much.

I have butchered quite a few of her rabbits, and haven't noted excessive fat buildup in them. I'll double check, but I believe we feed a 16% pellet.
 
Stinky intestines suggests a bacterial infection of some sort.

3/4 cup seems low for rabbits trying to keep warm in Alaska, if they are in a heated barn it would be reasonable, and I assume the lactating does and kits are free fed pellets.

The boss will add fat/calories if this is your worry but protein is needed for muscle growth and your 18% pellets should suffice.

Did the butchered kit have a lot of fat internally?
 
Fat around the kidneys, but hubby says no more than on previous kits. Okay will up food intake for adults, breeder has all hers on free choice. Just had read a lot of posts about adult males getting too fat. Maybe I over compensated :oops: Michelle has bred Satins up here for 8 years, so maybe her line just needs more food. Unheated barn, although we have had a very warm winter this year.
:D Appreciate every ones ideas! Thanks!
Keep it coming :popcorn:

Next freezer camp is the first week of April. I will look very carefully at the insides of these youngsters. At 7wks this litter was 1/2-3/4 of a pound heavier than the previous litter at that age. <br /><br /> -- Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:23 pm -- <br /><br /> For my doe the "lack of appetite" represents me commenting to the breeder that she only liked pellets. She doesn't really go for the hay, completely turns up her nose at the branches and yummy buds, and will only nibble on the most tempting of greens. Whereas every other rabbit I have will demolish all of the above, and eat the pellets once the rest is gone. Not really a lack of appetite per se, just a picky eater lol. Doesn't drink as much water as the others either :?
 
MatSuAK":2gipsjpg said:
Okay will up food intake for adults, breeder has all hers on free choice.

Trust what works for your breeder. She has been working with these rabbits for eight years, so she will know how best to care for the line. :)

I think that between needing the nutrition for their coats and their rather high strung dispositions, Satins burn more calories.

MatSuAK":2gipsjpg said:
Just had read a lot of posts about adult males getting too fat.

If your buck starts being lazy about performing his "duties" you might consider a diet, but otherwise I wouldn't worry about it.

MatSuAK":2gipsjpg said:
For my doe the "lack of appetite" represents me commenting to the breeder that she only liked pellets. Not really a lack of appetite per se, just a picky eater lol.

If she was raised on pellets only that isn't unusual.

It sounds like you are trying to feed a more natural diet, with less emphasis on pellets... that is also a factor in the slower growth rate. I fed grains, weeds, and hay for a year or more, and just didn't get the early growth or even senior weights that I should have.

It was a good experiment for me, because I wanted to see if I could raise meat for my family in a TEOTWAKI situation... but if you want to be competitive on the show table it isn't the way to go, at least not for the short term. I'm sure you could eventually develop a line that might be competitive, but it would take quite a few generations.

Most show/commercial breeders give treats rarely if at all and may give hay a couple times a week. Or not.

MatSuAK":2gipsjpg said:
Doesn't drink as much water as the others either :?

Since you are in Alaska, I assume all of your rabbits currently have crocks as opposed to bottles? I usually recommend a crock to up water consumption since the valve methods take more effort for the rabbit... but that probably isn't the case with her. :?

You might try giving her a separate bowl with electrolytes in it and see if she likes that better than plain water. The more a rabbit drinks, the more it will eat.
 
Yep everybunny has a crock for water. They love to make "tea" and put their hay in there. Seriously, I watch them do it! Even the males do a haystache thing, and plunk in the bowl it goes :lol:
Showing is a fun hobby for me. Happy buns and meat for the table is first.
Hmmm never considered Satins high strung, not that I have a lot of rabbit experience to compare to though. I love mine, all cuddle bugs and floppy. I always think of the Holland Lops at our shows. Now those are some feisty bunnies! :pinkbunny: <br /><br /> -- Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:58 pm -- <br /><br /> I know Michelle's kids give the rabbits lots of greens and treats especially in the summer. BOSS was to help with coat condition during the winter. We have chick weed up here that everyone I have talked to so far says is the best coat conditioner ever. My bunnies and reptiles love it. Doe won't be a year old until June 2nd so still young. Buck will be a year in April.
How long before I would see if the increase in food is making a difference? Do it for a month maybe and do a weigh-in again? Just don't want to let a disease go on for long if that's what it is. Will keep my eyes peeled for any different symptoms.
 
Wow, some really great info in this thread, bookmarking now!!

From what I've read, OACV (or just ACV) in the water can cause rabbits to drink more water, as well as being good for digestion and nutrient absorption and boosting the immune system. Fenugreek is supposed to be good for increasing appetite, though it shouldn't be given to pregnant does as it can induce labor. Sweet dill seeds are also supposed to increase appetite, and ginger is supposed to help ease transition of kits to pellets. Just some ideas from my research. :)
 
Interesting tidbit. This morning another friend posted on our local rabbit FB page about his mini rex not doing well this winter. Again low weights on a certain line of rabbits he has, but the others are doing fine.
And again the same general advice from other rabbit enthusiasts up here;
deworm, cocci dump, treat for mites & lice. Wish I could show the whole post on here. Just has my curiosity going, and I want all the correct answers RIGHT NOW! :lol:
Don't we all lol :roll:
 
Unless I missed something, the only thing I read that your buns are displaying is a lack of weight gain. I'm with MSD, I would up the feed amounts before I did anything else. I have two does, close to the same age and size, and the amounts they eat is very different. One is a Hoover, sucking up everything in her cage. The other is...picky. She will eat some of her pellets, but only after everything is gone, and no signs of incoming treats is in sight.

I would give them at least a couple weeks of increased feed, then weigh them and go from there. Of course, monitoring them for any other signs, but that would be my first step. Hopefully, it will be all it takes.
 
MatSu, unfortunatly I don't have much input. I have only just gotten into rabbits and am trying to figure stuff out too. I don't have a local mentor, just this site which has been FANTASTIC!!! I have chosen to go the fodder route for my bunnies as up here in the interior the pellets are rediculously pricey. I also have does that have not grown to the adult weight that was expected however I got them at 5mo and the breeder was only feeding grass hay and oats so I am not sure they, nor their mothers, received the proper nutrition to reach their genetic potential. They are meat mutts but should be at least 8 or 9 lb adults and were only 4lb at 6 mo. :x I am going to weigh them again this weekend as they are now 7 mo and didn't end up taking on their first breeding so I will breed them again this weekend as well. I am not sure that they will make it to the 8lb mark but they feel heavier when picked up so I am hoping they will have gained some. Someone on here also mentioned to me that their ears looked small so it could be that there is some dwarf in their background that I am not aware of. I have been keeping tabs on their back and overall condition to make sure they aren't getting fat. They have been getting free choice grass hay, alfalfa cubes, 6% of their weight in barley fodder, and BOSS.

Back to your buns :oops: I would think that what others have said is wise to increase their feed first and go from there. I don't know about you but I have been seeing so much advice about not feeding too much so they don't get fat that I have been nervous that I am feeding too much. However, with the cold that we have in the winter and the legnth of winter I really think I could even be feeding a little more. Your area is not as cold but still I think we can get by with feeding heavy in the winter but make sure to dial it back in the spring.

Also about the doe that won't eat anything other than the pellets. My buck was raised on pellets and grass hay and I took the risk of not buying a bag of pellets to switch him over gradually :oops: I know that it is strongly advised against what I did but I got lucky and he is fine (although I am not sure I would risk it on one that I paid more than $10 for). He never had any odd looking poops and actually is starting to look better than when I got him. I did make sure he had all the alfalfa cubes that he wanted, although he didn't start eating them till about two weeks ago and I have had him for almost two months now. I also gave him oats which I knew that people had suggested feeding oatmeal to sick buns so I figured it was a safer way to go. I switched him over to barley a week or two before starting to feed the fodder and I did slowly introduce the fodder to all of my buns. I guess that I am of the mindset that I will try to do things the correct way but I can't go out of my way to do over the top extra for the (they are for meat). I do plan on getting Silver Fox this spring and if these bunnies don't prove themselves by then they will go to Freezer Camp :(

I am not sure that any of this SUPER long post helps but I am feeling wordy today I guess :lol:
 
*Update*

After just two weeks of changing to free choice pellets, 1/2 teaspoon of rolled oats and BOSS everyone has put on weight. :cheer1:
I have not dewormed yet at this point.
Rew (the Satin female that started the whole inquiry) gained 1/2 lb, Blue 1 lb, and Marshmallow 1-1/4lbs! Everyone seems to be starting to molt also :troll: Making for a very hairy bunny barn.
Some pics of my buns to follow :D

-- Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:42 pm --

Agouti's litter at 10wks. Everyone at 4lbs except one at 3lbs. A good 1/2 lb heavier already then her last litter that went to freezer camp at 12wks old :mrgreen:

-- Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:44 pm --

Marshmallow, 7lbs at 5 months. <br /><br /> -- Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:30 pm -- <br /><br /> current litter at 4 wks
 

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I've been thinking for a while that I need to treat me rabbits for cocci. Recently I had a kit die and it's liver had white spots on it when I opened it up. I have ordered the gallon liquid 12.5% sulphadimethoxine. It seems like I should add it for 5 days. I've looked on-line to see what the rabbit dosage is and found chicken, turkey & beef but am having trouble finding the correct amount to add to the rabbits' water. Does anyone know what is recommended?
 
Rabbits get the same dose as chickens.

Unlike chickens, rabbits have a terrific sense of smell so they really need to be thirsty in order to get them to drink it. I would not recommend giving it to lactating does for this reason.
 
Nice pics of some good looking rabbits! I have an older show/brood doe that has always been in a cage, but she was having soft stools off and on, so I decided to treat my whole crew for the first time this winter. She has been doing great since treatment. Not sure if she was exposed to it from the hay, or show table, or what. Not even sure if that's what it was, but she has definitely improved.
 

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