Leg infection, 4 day old kit (graphic/gross warning)

[Cottie]

He's been euthanized. I started out with the intention of cleaning the wound out and keeping him in a separate nestbox inside to prevent the spread of the bacteria, but the more I cleaned the more obvious it was it was a lost cause. The final straw came when he began screaming when I worked on the second wound.

I believe this was one of Pepper's (first timer) kits, due to the coloring. He had matching puncture wounds on each hind leg. She probably pulled him out less than gently. The swelling increased over the last three days and I wanted to see if it was causing him discomfort. With slight pressure, liquid puss came out of the wound.



So we sat down with hydrogen peroxide, antibiotic cream and some cotton swabs. Cleaned out what was there, and gently pushed. It was more solid and there was...well...a lot.



After cleaning that out, the whole scab came off and I could see a solid mass of infected matter under the skin beyond the margins of the wound. His leg was swollen all the way around, so I'm guessing the infection had spread around/through the joint.



He was getting pretty squirmy, so I decided to clean that one, let it sit, and check the other (non-swollen) side. Stopped photographing, because the scab slid off and it was solid infected matter underneath. It looked like the wound pictured above, but covered in infection. He started screaming at this point, and we decided euthanizing was the best option.

Poor guy. Perhaps had I disinfected when I first saw the scabs on Monday it would have turned out differently, but I saw no reason to pull off scabs when there was so little swelling...and honestly, I don't think there was much we could, either way.

 

[DitchDoc]

Aww, RJ, I'm sorry

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Poor guy. Perhaps had I disinfected when I first saw the scabs on Monday it would have turned out differently, but I saw no reason to pull off scabs when there was so little swelling...and honestly, I don't think there was much we could, either way.

So sorry you lost him! However even if disinfected early you probably would have had the same result, so I doubt that would have made a difference.

 

[PSFAngoras]

I would agree with you that acting sooner may have saved him. But that's just it *may*. I have a doe kit I patched up. I expected to find her dead every day, but she persevered. I think even if its caught and dealt with immediately you still only have *at best* a 50/50 chance. There just too little and fragile at that point. Although it sucks now, its a learning curve for the next generation.

It's awful that you had to put him down. I'm sorry.

 

[Cottie]

I would agree with you that acting sooner may have saved him. But that's just it *may*. I have a doe kit I patched up. I expected to find her dead every day, but she persevered. I think even if its caught and dealt with immediately you still only have *at best* a 50/50 chance. There just too little and fragile at that point. Although it sucks now, its a learning curve for the next generation.

It's awful that you had to put him down. I'm sorry.

It's just so hard to decide if cleaning is in order or not. When I first found the wounds, they were just scabs. Seems every litter has a kit with a scab or two. The only thing that suggested anything was wrong was the swelling continually increasing rather than decreasing. I need to get better at determining infections in rabbits.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I would agree with you that acting sooner may have saved him. But that's just it *may*. I have a doe kit I patched up. I expected to find her dead every day, but she persevered. I think even if its caught and dealt with immediately you still only have *at best* a 50/50 chance. There just too little and fragile at that point. Although it sucks now, its a learning curve for the next generation.

It's awful that you had to put him down. I'm sorry.

It's just so hard to decide if cleaning is in order or not. When I first found the wounds, they were just scabs. Seems every litter has a kit with a scab or two. The only thing that suggested anything was wrong was the swelling continually increasing rather than decreasing. I need to get better at determining infections in rabbits.

To be totally honest, if it had a scab, I would have left it alone, too. Removing the scab exposes the site of injury to bacteria...part of the purpose of an external scab is to keep pathogens OUT. There's no way to know that they were already in there, unless you could see into the future.

 

[DitchDoc]

:yeahthat: :goodpost: You couldn't know, RJ.

 

[ladysown]

every litter has a scab or two??? hmmm... are you trimming nails? could that cause it?

 

[Cottie]

every litter has a scab or two??? hmmm... are you trimming nails? could that cause it?

I am trimming nails. I don't know what it is. It seems that every litter we've had, at least one kit has a little scratch somewhere.

 

[PSFAngoras]

It is hard to tell when treatment is necessary and when not, but I have the advantage of having quite a bit of experience for someone my age. My mom always kept me involved in every aspect of our pets lives, no matter how severe. It's certainly paid off.

Typically, and this is just my speculation, a deeper wound feels different than a more superficial one. If you touch a scab on your arm, for instance, you feel the scab itself as hard, but you can still feel the underlying tissue as soft and pliable like it should be. Deeper wounds can usually be felt nearly the whole depth of the wound. The effected tissue is inflamed as an immune response to potential threats, and is trying to fight off infection. It feels like if you have your ears pierced. You can only see the hole on each side, but you can feel it through your earlobe. It's not the best example as the tissue is typically much more noticable as its inflamed, but its one many of us can feel for ourselves and relate to and feel for an idea of about what it feels like.

If the scab is superficial and fairly small, I typically leave the animal to its own devices to heal itself. If it feels deeper, or I can physically see its a deep wound, I keep the scab soft and pliable by soaking it a couple time and draining it out. Most animals are tough enough that if the wound is thoroughly cleaned and the infection is drained out as frequently as possible ( I make sure its done a minimum of 2x a day, more if I can manage it and it needs it) that they will heal fine with little effort and in most of my cases, without antibiotics, though I am not against using them if the infection looks fairly severe.

The chances of survival for the little kits I would assume is much less though, as they're still at site a fragile stage physically and also in their immune state. You also had the unfortunate circumstance of your kits injury being in a spot that would have been much harder to feel whether there was a bigger risk of infection or not, since their little legs are so boney and theirs not much of any tissue to try to gauge the matter.

As I said, this is only my experience and how I handle things, for what's its worth. I'm not a vet, but I've done pretty well so far with my critters as far as I can, but I will always trouble shoot with my vet if I am not certain with something. Luckily, she usually welcomes the opportunity to help.

Hope this made sense and is somewhat helpful, its late, and I still need to get my butt in bed as archery season starts tomorrow morning and I have to get up at 4:30

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

every litter has a scab or two??? hmmm... are you trimming nails? could that cause it?

I am trimming nails. I don't know what it is. It seems that every litter we've had, at least one kit has a little scratch somewhere.

Every litter I've ever had has a "ding" somewhere...a kit that's scratched, one that got nibbled, something like that. Nellie's litter was the first that didn't have a mark! Until Fathead crawled into some wire and scarred her back. :roll:

Typically, and this is just my speculation, a deeper wound feels different than a more superficial one. If you touch a scab on your arm, for instance, you feel the scab itself as hard, but you can still feel the underlying tissue as soft and pliable like it should be. Deeper wounds can usually be felt nearly the whole depth of the wound. The effected tissue is inflamed as an immune response to potential threats, and is trying to fight off infection. It feels like if you have your ears pierced. You can only see the hole on each side, but you can feel it through your earlobe. It's not the best example as the tissue is typically much more noticable as its inflamed, but its one many of us can feel for ourselves and relate to and feel for an idea of about what it feels like.

Not to be a jerk, but...I had to extensively research all clotting mechanisms for a fairly major test, and the "feel" method you describe is subjective at best. It doesn't take into account all the intrinsic and extrinsic steps that go into forming a clot.

Something that I have learned from having to be actually educated in these things is, sometimes you just can't tell. On a tiny kit it's even tougher to determine the extent of an injury where the site of injury has a scab...these kits are SO small.

If feeling the scab works for you, go with it. I personally find it doubtful. Sorry.

If it feels deeper, or I can physically see its a deep wound, I keep the scab soft and pliable by soaking it a couple time and draining it out.

I wouldn't do this unless it was a deep puncture wound or already showed signs of infection or extensive swelling. Doing this on an injury that is already healing fine on it's own doesn't help and can actually make it worse by introducing new pathogens to the opened area.

As I said, this is only my experience and how I handle things, for what's its worth. I'm not a vet, but I've done pretty well so far with my critters as far as I can, but I will always trouble shoot with my vet if I am not certain with something. Luckily, she usually welcomes the opportunity to help.

If it works for you, then that's awesome! But I stand by my opinion that there was no way to know what was going on under that scab without psychic powers. Now I grant you, my opinion is merely that, not a FACT, and if having to be formally educated in things like clotting factors has taught me ANYTHING it is that I know just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, and that the core of the issue that most can't see is in the minds of professionals.

In other words, I accept the fact that I know enough to know that I don't know enough. :mrgreen:

 

[PSFAngoras]

I did state that I am not a vet and it was simply the best way I could describe inflamed tissue that may *potentially* be infected, and what *I* do if it does appear to be at risk of infection.

It's what I do with my animals and it does work for me if caught early on. I just wanted to mention a more low key way of helping gauge treatment vs. no treatment. With out the scientific details that most meat breeders are not going to look at *i.e. blood clots*.I'm sorry if I offended you Kyle. Just attempting to help.

 

[squidpop]

One of my kits got a scratch and I tried to be proactive and put some betadine on it. Turned out to be a big mistake it ate the skin and the skin actually curled back and the scratch looked more like a cut- so I made something minor into something worse. I felt bad. It did heal but I'm pretty sure it would have healed faster if I left it alone. I did research after it happened and I really believe Manuka Honey is probably the only thing that disinfects but doesn't eat the tissue.

 

[Frecs]

I had a kit born to my FAngora that got the nestbox fur wrapped around his throat and just about strangled himself to death. I managed to get the noose undone but he had cut the skin on his throat. I applied Cut Heal and it healed up fine.

Under most circumstances, I would not be inclined to open up scabbed wounds. Scabs are a protective seal. I figure God created the clotting/scabbing process for a very good reason.

Poultices can be applied over scabbed wounds that can help with underlying infections and aid in healing. I don't know that it is possible to apply to a kit (or even a grow rabbit??? never tried)...just thinking outloud here... ...Perhaps rather than a poultice, essential oils blended in a carrier oil could be applied that would help in healing and infection fighting...

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

Under most circumstances, I would not be inclined to open up scabbed wounds. Scabs are a protective seal. I figure God created the clotting/scabbing process for a very good reason.

:yeahthat: :goodpost: