Kits dying... should they be removed from doe, 3 weeks

[WhWRabbitry]

Some may have seen my post last night regarding what I thought was a kit drowning (those that responded didn't think that was the case and they were right). Today another kit is near death. I posted some of the following as an update to that post but thought more appropriate here at this point. Please respond to the last question in this post, as to what course of action you would take at this point!
***
I have noticed lately that the doe seemed sometimes more irritated with her kits. She'd run away from them some or get in her litter box and actually kick bedding from it back on them. She's done this different times this week. (She's never done that in her litter box before)

So now I just am trying to establish if they are getting hurt by her (no visible signs of injury so it would be internal), or if she has stopped feeding them adequately, OR if they have some infection or something. Or possibly both of the first two.

They are 3 weeks today. I'm fearing though in another day that they'll suddenly start being the same way as these two previous. I really would be sad to lose them all. The magpie is breathing but has it's eyes closed, and isn't moving around much. When I sit it down it tries to walk but stumbles. Is there anything I should try for this little one or is it likely I just need to accept its fate at this time? ** update 10:30 this one died too.

SO, for the two remaining kits should I
1) remove the doe from them - would they get enough hydration and food supply from the hay & pellet food (I'd also add in oats as I hear you all saying that)

2) Leave them with her

3) Put them with my other doe that has 2 three week old kits that are doing wonderfully
?Would she accept them at this stage? Or is that a bad idea - in case it's some type of sickness?

 

[Miss M]

Oooooooooooo... that's terrible news! I wish I had answers I could be sure of, I really do. <br /><br /> -- Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:47 am -- <br /><br /> I think I would remove them, but I wouldn't give them to the other doe. Maybe feed them oatmeal soaked in canned goat's milk (don't dilute).

I think it's possible this could be coccidia related, so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

 

[Homer]

If they were mine I'd pull them. Start hand feeding them until they get a slightly rounded belly a couple times a day with Miss M's formula.

Miss M's formula recipe;
1/2 Cup canned evaporated goat's milk, undiluted
1/2 Tablespoon corn syrup
1 Egg yolk
Warm it slightly so they can digest it better.

Keep food, Old Fashion Oatmeal and water available and cross your fingers. :clover: <br /><br /> -- Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:01 am -- <br /><br /> Miss M might be right. Do they have poopy butts, diarrhea? If so you might want to try this, http://rabbittalk.com/dosage-question-t23285.html

 

[WhWRabbitry]

Oooooooooooo... that's terrible news! I wish I had answers I could be sure of, I really do.

-- Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:47 am --

I think I would remove them, but I wouldn't give them to the other doe. Maybe feed them oatmeal soaked in canned goat's milk (don't dilute).

I think it's possible this could be coccidia related, so hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

Miss M, Thank you for the reply. I just went and looked at the 2 remaining. Their bottoms are totally clean in appearance and I have not seen any diarrhea. (answering Homer too on that)

They are out from their Mom. I will not put them with the other doe, as you've suggested. I've called my husband to pick up canned goats milk and oatmeal (I only have quick oats - I'm assuming there's a difference)

Thanks so much for trying to help!

 

[Homer]

... I've called my husband to pick up canned goats milk and oatmeal (I only have quick oats - I'm assuming there's a difference)

Thanks so much for trying to help!

Yes there is a difference. You want the oatmeal you have to cook for a few minutes, never the instant stuff.

 

[Zass]

Take you doe out and check her teats. Are there any swollen ones? They will feel hard and probably hot too.

That would indicate mastitis.


For future reference,
it's normal for does to flee from kits when they are that age. They do not get to nurse on demand, and it's not very natural doe a doe to be confined in close quarters to them.

Many breeders provide something for the doe to jump up on to give her a place to escape to.

Everyone had already given good advice on feeding.
I'll just suggest you also check the kits for dehydration. If you can easily feel their spines, you will want to treat for that.
A little pedialyte goes a long way towards hydrating kits.
You can also give infant smethicone drops for gas. I don't know if it will help, but it might make them more comfortable.

 

[MaggieJ]

Lots of good advice from the previous posters, WhW.

I'd just like to add that good grass hay is excellent for their digestive health, along with the oatmeal. I would offer the oatmeal soaked with the goat's milk but add just a pinch of brown sugar or a drop or two of blackstrap molasses to entice them to eat. Or use the formula where the corn syrup does much the same thing. You can offer dry oatmeal as well if you wish. Make sure they have fresh water - they will need it now that they are not nursing.

I am assuming you normally feed pellets. If they seem to be going along well in a few days you can reintroduce the pellets slowly so that they can adjust to them.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

Thank you all so much!!

How much oatmeal soaked in goats milk should I offer & how often? I'm assuming it will go bad if sits out too long.
There are just 2 kits.

 

[Homer]

You are correct, it will go bad on you if left out to long. I'd start with a tsp. and ad milk to it in a flat saucer and see how they do. If they clean it right up try a bit more. Just watch their tummies so they don't eat to much.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

Thanks again Homer! So, a couple times a day do this?

 

[Marinea]

Obviously, I'm not Homer, but I would feed them a couple times per day. I would also have hay out for them, along with water, of course.

*fingers crossed for the wee ones*

What a heartwrenching situation. I am sorry you're in this position. I just wanted to make sure you realize that if things go badly, it's NOT your fault. So many of us have been in your shoes, and it's never easy. Just know that you're doing all you can, and that the little one you lost says nothing about you or your ability to care for your rabbits.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

So kind and encouraging Marinea. I really appreciate your words. Thank you for the affirmation!

I do have some hay and water out for them (both a small water bowl & a water bottle).
I will do the oatmeal/goat milk a couple times a day. My husband should be home soon with those items.

 

[Miss M]

Marinea is so right. It's pretty natural to blame yourself for stuff like this happening, but you've done what you could. You came on here, described what you found, we help as best we can, but sometimes it can be just so many things... it's so hard to know what direction to go in sometimes.

Today, I saw that one of my rabbits has thinning fur on the shoulders. It's automatic. I go to the shed, pull out a bowl of diatomaceous earth, and rub a tablespoon or two into the fur of every rabbit, from between the ears, down the back, concentrating on the shoulders.

So many things, though, are not that simple. You can't just look at the rabbit and say, "Oh, okay. You're just starting a coccidia infection. Let's go get the Sulmet," or whatever, like you can look at the rabbit and say, "Oh, okay. Fur mites. Let's go get the DE."

Homer is right, you can also mix up the formula. I didn't really think about it, because they're three weeks old. But they would still be getting that rich milk from Mama, normally. You can even soak the oatmeal in the formula. Definitely feed the formula or the goat's milk warm (good and warm), whether you soak oatmeal in it or not.

I hope the other little bunnies make it! :clover:

 

[Homer]

How are those little guys doing today Wh?

 

[WhWRabbitry]

How are those little guys doing today Wh?

Homer,
Thanks so much for asking. They LOVE the old fashioned oats. They've been gobbling those down and eating hay. They aren't interested in the least in the goat's milk. I tried it with oats soaked in it and just plain goat milk alone. I couldn't get them to even taste it.
However, they are drinking water from the bowl. I'm hoping this is all enough. They were very active this morning and seemed good. They've been resting cuddled up together this afternoon.

 

[Miss M]

:lol: I'm really surprised about them not being interested in the goat's milk! You could sweeten it with a little molasses or syrup, to see if they'll be interested then.

If not, water and oats should help them get through just fine, at this point. After a week or so, you can start adding a small amount of pellets to the oatmeal.

 

[jimmywalt]

If they were mine I'd pull them. Start hand feeding them until they get a slightly rounded belly a couple times a day with Miss M's formula.

Miss M's formula recipe;
1/2 Cup canned evaporated goat's milk, undiluted
1/2 Tablespoon corn syrup
1 Egg yolk
Warm it slightly so they can digest it better.

Keep food, Old Fashion Oatmeal and water available and cross your fingers. :clover:

-- Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:01 am --

Miss M might be right. Do they have poopy butts, diarrhea? If so you might want to try this, http://rabbittalk.com/dosage-question-t23285.html

We did this recipe about a week ago and it worked GREAT. 3 of our babies that were hours from death are doing great. We also gave the doe parsley for about 3 days in a row to make sure her milk hadn't dried up.

 

[WhWRabbitry]

:lol: I'm really surprised about them not being interested in the goat's milk! You could sweeten it with a little molasses or syrup, to see if they'll be interested then.

If not, water and oats should help them get through just fine, at this point. After a week or so, you can start adding a small amount of pellets to the oatmeal.

Me too Miss M! I warmed it, I tried sprinkling a little brown sugar on top to entice them. It's like it doesn't register as food to them. I'm thrilled they love the oats though & are eating hay! So far so good.

 

[Zass]

Me too Miss M! I warmed it, I tried sprinkling a little brown sugar on top to entice them. It's like it doesn't register as food to them. I'm thrilled they love the oats though & are eating hay! So far so good.

Mine would never take goats milk from a dish.

You could try the formula or goats milk in a dropper, like this:

It's worked for me in the past.
Make sure it's warm. You might have to hold them firmly and force the first few drops to get them to realize it's food. It is natural and partially reflexive for them to jerk back at first. It takes some patience, but they do learn.

 

[JenerationX]

What were we talking about? I was distracted by dropper bunny.

Oh yeah.... I didn't know rabbits would eat oats. Sounds like they're wanting to be off milk. I hope they hang in there.