Keeping doe & buck together, in hope of good litter results

[honeybunnies]

Hi bunny lovers,
I have 3 seperate enclosures in the house with me with my Mini Lops in them. I am trying to breed my 3 does with my 3 bucks. So I have a doe & a buck together in each enclosure.

I read on here that you can keep the buck & doe together for a week or two & get a good litter result & it's no problem to have them together that long, so I thought I would try it.

I am amazed at how well it works. I have never done a breeding this way before, as I imagined that the bucks would keep humping the does & annoy them, but that's not the case at all. I have only had them together for 4 days now & they cuddle, bond & get along well. In fact I have not seen one mating as yet. A little humping at first, but not one actual mating during the day at all. I wonder if they have been mating at night perhaps?

Previously, I have only ever mated them perhaps twice in the same day, with several hours in between matings & have always then put them back in their own enclosures & I haven't had a great deal of luck, as I have lost more young ones than I would have like to have lost, so I thought I would give this method of breeding a go.

Before I put the 3 does in with their partners, I had the 3 does all together in their own one enclosure & all was well. I'm hoping to be able to put them all back in their enclosure when the time is right & that all will still be well between them & they will all have their young ones in their own little spot where they choose to make their nests.

Has anyone else tried this method of breeding & how did it go? Any other helpful advice you would like to offer, would be appreciated too!

thanks, honeybunnies :bunnyhop:

 

[DBA]

I could be wrong, but I would be worried about the pair breeding after she is a few days along in her pregnancy. Dual pregnancy might not be common, but can happen and from what I have read, it can mean the doe and all kits can die.
I might also worry about leaving them with the bucks long enough for them to bond. Then you take them away a day or two before kindling....could stress them enough to go into early labor. The bucks could get pissy and aggressive acting.

I don't know, maybe a whole host of things can happen, most of which you don't know about until it is too late.
I don't think its a good idea.

 

[Susie570]

Respectfully, as I understand it, dual pregnancy is a myth that has been disproven.

That being said, my buck and do were together every day until the day she kindled. I did not know the buck was a boy. They mostly got along great together. I did notice, toward the end of the unknown pregnancy, she got a bit aggressive toward him. I just thought she was in a bad mood and I would separate them for a while when she did that. Otherwise, they were very loving toward each other.

I would say that your main concerns would be, not knowing your exact breeding dates and the need to watch for possible aggressive behavior at some point. I've also heard that it might be stressful for the does to have bucks near the kits when they kindle. I do think it should be perfectly fine to leave them together for a couple of weeks though, unless a doe starts beating up on a buck.

Lastly, welcome to RT! Tons of great info here and helpful folks

 

[michaels4gardens]

Respectfully, as I understand it, dual pregnancy is a myth that has been disproven.

That being said, my buck and do were together every day until the day she kindled. I did not know the buck was a boy. They mostly got along great together. I did notice, toward the end of the unknown pregnancy, she got a bit aggressive toward him. I just thought she was in a bad mood and I would separate them for a while when she did that. Otherwise, they were very loving toward each other.

I would say that your main concerns would be, not knowing your exact breeding dates and the need to watch for possible aggressive behavior at some point. I've also heard that it might be stressful for the does to have bucks near the kits when they kindle. I do think it should be perfectly fine to leave them together for a couple of weeks though, unless a doe starts beating up on a buck.

Lastly, welcome to RT! Tons of great info here and helpful folks

I have never seen a dual pregnancy in 50 years of rabbit breeding, but I have had some litters "show up" after the does had raised the kits for a month or so, that there was no easy explanation for how the doe got pregnant. I once had a live litter from a doe who had been separated from other rabbits for at least 2 months [and not by a wire divider], - the only explanation I could imagine was that "some unidentified someone" had put her together with a buck in my absence. -But she was being culled for not getting pregnant. [she even made a fairly impressive nest just from chewed cardboard box and fur, in the corner of her cage and raised all of her kits]
I have come to believe that there are always exceptions to every "so called rule"

 

[Zass]

I think duel pregnancy may occur in rabbit...maybe. (Couldn't find any proof.)
I can say that both uterine horns can be used for a normal single pregnancy. When I had to cull a pregnant doe, I made sure to look. There were embryos in both horns. Which makes sense, kits would be carried on both sides of a doe's abdominal cavity.
So the "getting pregnant in the second uterine horn" thing is bogus.

If double pregnancy in rabbits occurs, I do not believe it's as potentially deadly as they say, otherwise wild rabbits and colony raised rabbits would be dying off from it all the time.

I think, more likely, does sometimes die with retained fetuses a week or two after miscarrying, leading to the killer double pregnancy myth.

 

[Susie570]

If double pregnancy in rabbits occurs, I do not believe it's as potentially deadly as they say, otherwise wild rabbits and colony raised rabbits would be dying off from it all the time.

I think, more likely, does sometimes die with retained fetuses a week or two after miscarrying, leading to the killer double pregnancy myth.

Agreed, and I also believe that IF dual pregnancy is possible, the unformed fetuses are passed along with the live litter.

 

[dangerbunny]

Dual pregnancies don't happen in rabbits.

"A breeder cannot therefore use the sexual behaviour of does as an indication of pregnancy. Mating occurring during gestation has no dire consequences for the embryos. Unlike the phenomenon observed in the female hare, superfoetation (two simultaneous pregnancies at two different stages of development) never occurs in rabbits"
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t1690E/t1690e05.htm

 

[ladysown]

I have left does in with bucks to get them bred up to three weeks. Problem with that method is you don't know when the doe "took" and ergo when to give a nestbox. It's manageable, but more difficult.

you hope to run your does as a colony after they have been separated for a one-two weeks.
I really hope that works well for you.

I am going to suggest a few things that should help.

1. have more nesting areas available than there are does but at least two.
2. have those obvious nesting areas well separated.
3. be prepared to do emergency nest and doe evacuation.
4. have extra hidey areas and up high resting areas for your rabbits so they can get out of the way and sight of each other.

HOPEFULLY all will go well.

 

[alforddm]

There was a documented duel pregnancy in a human mother in the Fort Smith region of AR a couple of years ago. She was documented as being pregnant with twins of different gestational ages. If it can happen in humans it could possibly happen in rabbits. We lived just north of Fort Smith when this occurred and up until that point in time I had never heard of it. It got quite a bit of coverage on the local news.

Here is a news report on the occurrence.
http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/h ... e-1.403384

A scientific article on a different case from 1980.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6937 ... t=Abstract

And the Wikipedia article on the phenomena. The article actually has list of reported cases in humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfetation

EDIT: I was able to find a article documenting the occurrence in European Brown Hare.

In this paper we use an experimental approach to demonstrate that female European brown hares (Lepus europaeus) frequently develop a second pregnancy while already pregnant and thereby increase their reproductive success

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v1 ... s1079.html

This is not the same species as the domestic rabbit (Oryctolagus cuniculus). However, given their similarities, I would be very hesitant to say that it doesn't happen in rabbits.

 

[ottersatin]

Yes, A Doe can have a double pregnancy,
this is because often when left with the Buck they may become
pregnant at a slightly later date in the other horn.
more often than not this leads to the loss of
one or both litters. Then again, when they are bred closely together,
Like a day or three apart they could have a larger litter as the both
horn develop and are born at the same time.
I*t has a lot to do with the luck of the draw! :twisted:
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I read on here that you can keep the buck & doe together for a week or two & get a good litter result & it's no problem to have them together that long, so I thought I would try it.

The usual advice I have seen here on RT is to bring the doe to the buck's cage and watch them until mating occurs one or more times, and then take the doe back to her own cage. Some does will get very aggressive with a buck if he continues to bother her, and will sometimes injure or even castrate him.

I imagined that the bucks would keep humping the does & annoy them, but that's not the case at all.

I'm glad to hear that things are going so well so far. It could be that the more mellow temperament of Mini Lops is a factor.

Previously, I have only ever mated them perhaps twice in the same day, with several hours in between matings & have always then put them back in their own enclosures & I haven't had a great deal of luck, as I have lost more young ones than I would have like to have lost, so I thought I would give this method of breeding a go.

If the problems is with losing kits that are born normal and healthy, the style of breeding shouldn't have anything to do with it. The doe is the one who cares for the kits after birth, so whether or not she lived with the buck for a period of time would be immaterial. It isn't like they are discussing good parenting techniques while they are together.

I'm hoping to be able to put them all back in their enclosure when the time is right & that all will still be well between them & they will all have their young ones in their own little spot where they choose to make their nests.

Sometimes that works, but at other times does will "steal" nests from others, oftentimes injuring or killing the kits when they do. I don't raise "colony style", but if I did, I think I would try to keep the does in their own space until they gave birth, and then once again let them share the whole colony space.

I could be wrong, but I would be worried about the pair breeding after she is a few days along in her pregnancy. Dual pregnancy might not be common, but can happen and from what I have read, it can mean the doe and all kits can die.

Anything is possible, but "dual pregnancies" would be incredibly rare, if they happen at all. I have copied the text from this post post223088.html#p223088 I wrote last year which explains why it would be highly unlikely:


Rabbits are induced ovulators, which means that they release the eggs on stimulation from the buck. They do have cycles of receptivity as indicated by the color of the vulva. Dark pink or purple indicates that she has follicles that are ready to burst and release eggs. If she is mounted when follicles aren't ready, none will be released.

During their receptive window, there are "waves" of follicles maturing at different rates. Once a follicle reaches a certain size and is ready to rupture, but the doe is not bred, it will regress and never be viable again. At that point another "wave" of follicles will be maturing and may be ready to be released.

Breeding her to another buck will not cause release of a secondary "wave" of eggs, because they will not yet be mature.

Some people claim that does can carry two pregnancies of different gestational age, but this is not possible due to the hormonal changes that occur when eggs are released.

I'm about to get technical on you, :explanation: but am trying to keep it relatively simple, so here goes:

When the eggs are released the follicle is called a corpus hemorrhagicum, but the cells change to become a corpus luteum. The corpus luteum produces relatively high levels of progesterone and moderate levels of other hormones such as estrogen to inhibit further production of follicle stimulating hormones, preventing the growth of new follicles and release of eggs.

The corpus luteum remains in the ovary while the eggs traverse the fallopian tubes, continuing to secrete progesterone to prepare the uterus for implantation of the embryo(s). When the egg implants itself, it releases another hormone (HCG) which signals the corpus luteum to continue secreting progesterone to maintain the thick lining and increased blood vessels to the uterus to maintain growth of the embryos. Eventually, the placenta takes over and the corpus luteum degrades.

If the eggs are not fertilized and implantation fails to occur, the corpus luteum stops progesterone production and decays, allowing the receptive cycle to resume.

 

[Susie570]

Right and as you said, even if it's theoretically possible it would be incredibly rare. If anything, I would worry about an aggressive buck injuring a litter in utero, particularly near the kindling date.

 

[Zinnia]

I started out with a colony. Three does and a buck all together. Because I didn't know when kindling was due to happen, I ended up finding three nests within two days when somebunny or everybunny went nuts and ransacked the nests. No babies survived. It may have been the does or even the buck. But, that was my first kindling experience... since referred to as simply "the massacre".

If I was ever to do a full out colony again, I'd be checking a couple times per day for nesting behavior. Even then, I could miss it. Now I do a modified colony.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I started out with a colony. Three does and a buck all together. Because I didn't know when kindling was due to happen, I ended up finding three nests within two days when somebunny or everybunny went nuts and ransacked the nests. No babies survived. It may have been the does or even the buck. But, that was my first kindling experience... since referred to as simply "the massacre".

Oh no!!! I am so sorry, Zinnia! That must have been terrible to behold.

Now I do a modified colony.

How exactly do you go about that? It might be helpful to Honeybunnies (and others considering this approach) if you could share the approach that is working for you now, since you have personal experience to go by.

 

[Zinnia]

Now I do a modified colony.

How exactly do you go about that? It might be helpful to Honeybunnies (and others considering this approach) if you could share the approach that is working for you now, since you have personal experience to go by.[/quote]

I keep as many as a dozen does and kits together in a large walk-in pen. If I want to breed a doe, I will bring her to the buck. She can still be in the colony until a few days before she'd due. I like knowing when they are due. Then she gets a birthing suite... a 3 X 8 pen where she raises her young. It takes some doing to reintroduce rabbits back into a colony after a few weeks, though. When the doe gets put back into the colony, it's with just the best kits from her litter. Some of her kits go into a large pen to raise for meat. They do fight. But, they usually hash it out quickly and they get along after that day. Yes, I have had a few with battle wounds... sometimes a torn ear, but never serious. They are capable of truly doing damage to one another, so I stay and watch them work it out in case I need to intervene. They need a lot of space, so even my 8 x 16 colony seems too small for what I want. I have it in mind to try a colony again with allowing a buck to stay, but I'd partition off mom and nest once I see nesting. I guess the extent of colony-raising that I am doing is not a natural breeding colony, but a way of allowing rabbits to socialize and stay active. Having French Angoras in this way has been more challenging because the wool needs more attention, but I have better ideas I want to implement once I'm done with a new space. I've actually gone to making large pens to house the best does while we work on it. So, I'm getting a taste of what it's like to have them in a smaller space. The rabbits seemed happier in a colony, though... room to run and jump and dig (under straw).

 

[Susie570]

Zinnia, do you think it would solve the integration issues if the pens were adjoining, so they could all interact with each other even when separate?

 

[honeybunnies]

Thank you everybody for your input :campfire:

All the different opinions are very interesting & have certainly given me plenty to ponder. More replies are quite welcome :all-ears:

From what I have read from all your helpful replies, I think what I will do is keep my pairs in pairs for 2 weeks, unless their behaviour changes in any way, especially watching out for any aggression what so ever & then put the does all back together in their original enclosure, to give them the second 2 weeks to re adjust to being together again, before it is time for them to hopefully start thinking about making their nests :coffeebath:

I will certainly give them options for where they can choose to do so & make sure their nails are all trimmed & smoothed. If there is any aggression going on, which I'm really hoping doesn't happen, I'll make any necessary separations for sure.

thanks, fellow bunny lovers :thankyou:

 

[Zinnia]

Zinnia, do you think it would solve the integration issues if the pens were adjoining, so they could all interact with each other even when separate?

Maybe, maybe not. For example, recently, I divided the colony into sections when I knew the does were bred. They would sleep up against the wire separators cozying up to their neighbor through that wire. There's a social aspect to that, but don't leave the latch undone! On a few occasions, the latch didn't hold and the mama went through to kick her neighbor's buns. No matter what else I have tried, it is best to reintroduce adults on neutral ground. So, that may mean all adults go into a play area with whoever's new. They may fight, but not nearly so much as when being put directly into the established community.

Honeybunnies, That sounds like it may work. Please let us know how the does get along kindling together. I have been pondering trying it out again, but oh... I'm nervous!

 

[honeybunnies]

I have a plan B that I am pondering after reading what Syberchick70, Zinnia & MamaSheepdog had to say in particular

:thinking:

The 3 enclosures I have the pairs in are metal puppy pens, that join each panel together with a long rod. So I have them all in a row at the moment, all rectangular in shape with some space between each, with the back of the pens along a wall.

So as Syberchick70 suggested I could line the 3 pens up close together once I separate the pairs & each doe would still have her own space without losing the close contact that they are used to having with each other, ensuring the kits should be kept safe when they are born.

:springtime:



As Zinnia suggested the thought of one doe killing the other does kits, is a pretty nasty thought & scares me too actually, although I would think it would be quite safe, as that is how I imagine it would work in burrows out in nature with bonded does. Still that thought has made me reconsider to plan B verreaction:

I also like Zinnia's & MamaSheepdog's idea of reintroducing them on neutral territory to start with & if all goes well, put them all back in their one enclosure which is different to the puppy pen ones. It's more like an alcove area with a clear door on it, attached to one side of the doorway, with hinges on one side & magnets on the other side to keep it securely shut.

I also have a 2 tier cage, although I don't like to cage them, so I have options for separating them as needed.

Thank you MamaSheepdog for all your interesting information. I learn't a lot from that. It was very interesting & easy to follow!


:explanation:


I would also like to thank dangerbunny for a great page of information!




:thankyou: All :typing: <br /><br /> -- Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:31 pm -- <br /><br /> Although I haven't observed any serious humping or actual mating in the 5 days that my pairs have been together, I have observed the bucks giving their doe the occasional sniff at the tail. Not too often, just now & then - sort of checking.

It makes sense to me that, that is how the bucks in the wild know whether or not a doe is at mating stage or not, by their scent & I think this is perhaps why I am not seeing any humping or nagging from the bucks going on, as I expected would probably happen. They must know instinctively when the doe is ready to mate & is at her peak by scent.

I think having them together & watching them snuggle at times is natures way perhaps of inducing the doe to the mating stage.

I've seen pictures of the does on here at various stages of colour at the vulva & I guess we can tell by that way, but the buck knows by her scent.

What do you think! Does that make sense to you? :campfire:

 

[Susie570]

It does make sense to me. I think a lot of the sexually aggressive behavior from bucks comes from frustration of not being with the does in a more natural environment. Speaking from experience, as I said, my pair basically ran loose together every day (separate cages at night) for 3 months. They certainly weren't humping all the time. Most of the time was spent playing, snuggling and just chilling out. Of course, he was not sexually mature when I first put them together. How old are your rabbits? Mine got along great up until maybe a week before the door kindled, then she started getting snippy with him.