Keep Her, Or Pet Her Out?

[Bad Habit]

Okay, so. Bred Georgie in December. She lived outside throughout her pregnancy, but I brought her into the house about 4 days before she was due to kindle. She kindled fine, though not in the box, kits were healthy, happy, and well fed. Went off feed 3-4 days post kindle. I medicated her, and she's started pooping and looking for foodstuffs again. I don't know why she stopped digesting, I don't know what, exactly, got her gut moving again. I'm concerned that it was due to the stress of the kindle - some does aren't just meant to be mothers. There's a more complete timeline towards the end of this post.

Now, the question is, do I try breeding her again, and risk the same thing happening and perhaps not being able to get her going again, or do I simply pet her out? I don't want to sell her as a potential brood doe, or anything like that, when her only kindle ended like this, unless I breed her again and everything goes okay. She's not essential to my breeding program, I actually had another breeding home lined up for her after this litter. (She carries chocolate, and can't be used in my BEW line.) So as I see it, since I don't feel it is ethical to sell her as a breeding doe without testing her again, I can either breed her again, or jump right to petting her out.

Or, would it be ethical to sell her as a breeding doe, despite this experience, provided I make sure the breeder is aware of the situation? She's not a bad quality doe, she has some very desirable traits, and is out of Alaska.

Timeline :
Jan 20th Kindle
Jan 23rd Went off feed - began administering nutridrops(1cc) and simenthecone(1cc) 2x daily- administered 1 extra strength tums crushed into 5cc water - administered 1 papaya enzyme tablet crushed into 5cc water
Jan 24th began administering vegetable oil(1/2cc - 1cc) 2x daily with nutridrops and simenthecone, administered approx .5oz pellets crushed into 10cc warm water
Jan 25th teeth grinding started, administered last dose of nutridrops
Jan 26th less teeth grinding, administered last doses of simenthecone and veg oil. Doe was producing copious amounts of very foul smelling gas in the evening(I actually went looking for dog poop somewhere, it smelled so bad!)
Jan 27th very large, cylindrical poops that were slimy and very soft in the cage in the morning, continuing to produce very large poops during the day. Was seen eating oats.

As long as she keeps eating and pooping, I have no intention of culling this doe, so please do not suggest it.​

 

[ladysown]

um... frankly I wouldnt even pet her out. Once a rabbit has had gut stasis they are prone to getting it again. Do you want to put her into a pet home where the symptoms might not be noticed and she suffers?

Also it's too soon to tell if she's going to make a full recovery or not.

I would not rebreed simply because my policy is... you have problems of any sort MEDICALLY I simply do not breed you.

 

[Bad Habit]

Obviously I intend to get her back to an appropriate weight before selling her... The last time I sold a ribby rabbit(to someone I trusted who understood what happened and didn't want to wait for me to get her back up to snuff), it turned around and bit me in the hiney. At this point I am looking for additional input and opinions. Thank you for your opinion, however I do not intend to cull.

 

[Zass]

There is a decent chance that her road to recovery will be long and uneconomical.

If she were mine, I'd terminally cull VS petting out too.
Not just for the sake of my reputation.
GI issues are very likely to recur, and death from stasis is very painful. I'd be afraid that giving her to another family as a pet would mean setting them up for tragedy, or expensive vet bills.

As primarily a meat rabbit breeder, I do realize that the choice to euthanize comes more easily to me than some others.

 

[ladysown]

Bad Habit.. I am sorry if I offended you with my response (at least that is my read on your response).

You were asking what you should do, my intent was to offer my reservations about both choices. I tried to offer reasons why I had reservations.

1. rabbit is just starting on her way back to recovery so trying to make decisions now might be premature.
2. selling a rabbit with gut issues maybe setting up her new owners for heartbreak and the rabbit for a less than pleasant death
3. breeding rabbits with known health issues is not good for the long term health and fitness of the breed.

I can understand that culling terminally is not an easy decision to make. It isn't.
Even through the difficulty though, you need to think long term in situations like this.

 

[Ramjet]

As primarily a meat rabbit breeder, I do realize that the choice to euthanize comes more easily to me than some others.

To me it comes down to ethics .... selling someone else your problem / a sickly critter - That aint no way to do business. Even if you were to tell them of the issue , the only persons likely to make that purchase is someone with very limited knowledge of rabbits.

And the very high likelihood the rabbit continues to suffer or the suffering recurs .... vets treating rabbits is generally a joke but in the event you find one qualified , the cost would be .... ugh. Again , the only person who likely buys that animal is someone who has no clue .... the animal probably has long term issues if it lives beyond the stress of rehoming and a dietary change .....

Just have dinner , save yourself or a potential buyer the headaches / ruined rabbit experience.


Rule #1 never sell or give away animals that aren't in perfect health.

 

[Bad Habit]

As long as she keeps eating and pooping, I have no intention of culling this doe, so please do not suggest it.​

 

[Marinea]

As culling is not an option, if I were in your shoes, I would see no option but to keep her.

 

[Bad Habit]

So... what's the point in trying to save a rabbit ever then? Why do we have medication and treatment guides if once the rabbit recovers, it cannot be bred or sent to a pet home? Why did I bother spending all that time getting her gut moving again? For that matter, if she is now considered unfit to breed, and her and her line unhealthy, why did I rush the kits to a foster mom 1/2 an hour away(well, it's supposed to be a 45 min drive, I made it in 30...) if presumably they are no longer fit for breeding either? Should they be culled as well? How far back does this supposed health issue go? Do I need to contact and prepare the owners of Georgie's siblings? How about her parents, the inclination to bloat must have come from somewhere. I suspected wool block, because she ate most of the hay out of her nest, so probably ingested hair with it, plus pulling her coat for the nest. Does that make wool block something to cull for? Should I stop providing preventative treatment for wool block, and just start letting my rabbits get wool block, so I can cull it out of my herd?

 

[Rainey]

Several others have tried to respond to your original question but you haven't seemed to find the responses helpful. Perhaps it would help if you stated your goals for your breeding program. The responses make sense if the primary goal is good health but people have different priorities.
As for why anyone would ever try to save a rabbit--I can imagine working to keep a doe well enough to raise kits to weaning and of treating a rabbit for something where you know what caused the problem and can prevent its recurrence. And I've also sometimes wondered how far out to cull related rabbits when one has a health issue for which we cull--thinking they all might be affected is distressing.
You said in your initial post that some does just aren't meant to be mothers. The first one we bred last year lost all of her first litter on the wire and only kept 4 out of 11 from the next. She was culled. Her 2 sisters, also first time mothers, raised 3 successful litters each last year and will be bred again this year. We didn't keep any of the first doe's offspring to breed. Just made more sense to us to keep ones from the better mothers. And I'm glad we didn't try her a third time--it was really hard having all those kits die.
I hope you find a solution that satisfies you and gets you further toward your goals.

 

[Schipperkesue]

So... what's the point in trying to save a rabbit ever then? Why do we have medication and treatment guides if once the rabbit recovers, it cannot be bred or sent to a pet home? Why did I bother spending all that time getting her gut moving again? For that matter, if she is now considered unfit to breed, and her and her line unhealthy, why did I rush the kits to a foster mom 1/2 an hour away(well, it's supposed to be a 45 min drive, I made it in 30...) if presumably they are no longer fit for breeding either? Should they be culled as well? How far back does this supposed health issue go? Do I need to contact and prepare the owners of Georgie's siblings? How about her parents, the inclination to bloat must have come from somewhere. I suspected wool block, because she ate most of the hay out of her nest, so probably ingested hair with it, plus pulling her coat for the nest. Does that make wool block something to cull for? Should I stop providing preventative treatment for wool block, and just start letting my rabbits get wool block, so I can cull it out of my herd?

I think only you can answer those questions, because when it comes right down to it, you are the one in control of your breeding. Others can only make suggestions based on their own knowledge and experience but you are the one living it.

So I guess my suggestion is weigh your information, balance it with your experience, and follow your heart.

 

[ladysown]

why try to save the kits?
Because genetically they may be better than their mom.

As you have noticed in a litter of four.. two did well, two did not. One of those weaker two died. guess which two have a stronger will to live and/or a better immune system?

Genetics and how they play out with immune systems is FASCINATING to me.

you can have a litter with eight kits.. six of them will thrive and two will not. WHEN you breed doe a to buck a.

But if you take doe a and breed her to buck b ALL eight kits will thrive. Why is that?

To me it breaks down into how the genetics play out if ALL OTHER THINGS are equal.

So once you know a rabbit (buck or doe) has an issue.. you remove them from your herd. GUT issues I cull for as I know that it's an illness that often repeats.

If a rabbit had poor feet because it couldn't handle being on wire and was going into a pet home with a solid floor that would be kept clean.. NO issues in rehoming. It's a FOOT issue not a gut issue.

Snot gets culled no questions.. that's an immunologically related disease REGARDLESS of the cause (assuming no stuck hay issues). if it's a stuck hay issue I think to myself "STUPID RABBIT.. do I want to breed stupid???" I don't want to breed stupid but I would have no issues rehoming but would tell new owner..this one has gotten hay stuck up its nose in the past.. might have been a one off but be aware.

Have you ever had a buck that you bred to your does and you didn't like the result? Would you keep that buck in your herd? Or a doe who regardless who you bred to had failing to thrive kits...would you keep breeding her? No.. you'd rehome.

Culling for health issues is one of those long term view issues.. needing to decide what you will and will not tolerate in your herd. I don't do "I have to fuss with you rabbits" some people LOVE to doing that (fussing with rabbits). I just don't. So I cull hard for health issues and don't rehome does with KNOWN health issues that I KNOW will repeat. (like gut issues and snot). I just DON"T.

You may feel more confident about that... to me it's not worth the risk. Do I want to have my rabbit die (and particularly die badly) if the next person isn't as knowledgable as I am or can't afford to do a vet visit?

I don't cull kits quickly but I do watch them, and I do stress them before letting them go to new homes. if they can't handle stress in a place where everything smells the same.. how will they handle stress in a place where EVERYTHING is new?

It's all choices... this is why "I" make the choices that I do. You may have other reasoning.

 

[Zass]

I only ever said what I would do if it were my decision.
My reasoning is partially colored by the fact that I have been in a similar situation.

I didn't hesitate to nurse my favorite doe (Pancake) through diahrea and gi stasis.
The experience is still very valuable when I need to talk someone with a sick pet through treatment, and it was valuable to extend Pancake's life, because she was someone I didn't wish to part with.

After she recovered and gained her weight back, I did rebreed her, and her daughters were bred too, favored even, because I loved Pancake's temper and mothering enough to try to get a line with those traits. (I didn't actually succeed.)
But, I still do not consider her problem to be one I had with the whole line, since she was the only one here who ever displayed such a weak immune system.
If I could go back though, I would not have continued to breed her and would have just kept her as a pet since she was precious to me, and I never did feel as strong of a connection to her offspring.. (Hindsight is 20/20 right?)
The one thing I would not have done would be to pass her onto someone else who may not have been able to humanely euthanize her when the time came.

 

[TF3]

I agree that you need to assess and decide based on your breeding goals.

I know personally, if I am going to breed ANY animal, I have to ensure that what I put out into the world (and potential breeding pool) is of sound physical health (among other things).
Because *I* chose to breed animals and if a given animal is not sound, it is my *difficult* decision how to proceed because ultimately it is my responsibility.
Not a responsibility I am willing to pass on to a pet home (where the animal may suffer, get passed on again, incur large vet bills, heartache) OR the animal itself (good luck to you, whatever may come).
Which is where I have to then set my personal criteria for terminal culling.
In this situation, yes, I would cull.
And barring that, I would have to keep the animal, and not breed it.

I recently sold a doe with full disclosure to another farm.
She has sore hocks at times, but they mend well.
I did not want to breed her because in my conditions she did not thrive, BUT she has many great attributes and was a healthy doe in her prime of excellent lines.
So I made the choice.
If she had been a mutt, I would have culled her.
So there were a number factors at play in deciding to 'save' her.

(I am not sure 'saving' is helpful terminology as it sounds like rescuing etc. from an otherwise cruela nd careless fate, which is not what is in play when seriously discussing ethical culling, is it?)

I have had to euthanize TWO dogs in their prime.
I was not the breeder, but I did pay for purebred animals and they were mine.
In each case, a gorgeous, physically healthy animal.
But with serious mental issues (both aggression related although totally different issues).
I had SO many people tell me to re-home them... but I could not in good conscience choose to put a dangerous animal in someone else's hands.
Nor was it fair to these anxious dogs to put that kind of stress on them.
IN each case, they were a threat.
And in each case I tried many interventions training, medical etc. and I am not an inexperienced dog owner.
Although I miss them both (one was my closest companion for a decade), I never regretted the decision.

And frankly, rabbits don't carry that kind of weight for me, personally.
So clarify your goals and make your decision.
It sounds like they don't mesh with others, which is ok, but others are not speaking without thought or care
Good luck.

 

[alforddm]

If it was wool block though would it be in the same category as gi stasis for a short haired breed? I'm not trying to be flippant I would genuinely like to know as I have considered getting a wooler sometime in the future.

 

[imajpm]

I have several rabbits with health issues that disqualify them as pets. I kept them but I had to make the decision that by doing so I was reducing my usable cage space. If I can't or shouldn't sell them, and can't eat them, then I just have to make room. Can't see any other way around it. <br /><br /> -- Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:59 pm -- <br /><br />

If it was wool block though would it be in the same category as gi stasis for a short haired breed? I'm not trying to be flippant I would genuinely like to know as I have considered getting a wooler sometime in the future.

The modern theories on wool block indicate that it comes after stasis. So you can avoid it if you get the gut moving again. I've got angoras and I have had a few cases of recurring gut stasis in a pair of non breeding siblings, but no cases of wool block, ever. Knock on wood. They get the same food my meat buns do. Fodder, some pellets, and hay.

 

[Bad Habit]

I don't consider wool block a recurring health issue. Any time I have dealt with this in the past and gotten the gut moving, the rabbit has not had a recurrence of the wool blockage. I also am not inclined to think that starvation(which the 2 kits from the litter died from) is an indicator of immune system health - the fact that 2 kits survived and 2 didn't is only an indication of which were larger at birth(false dwarfs, most likely) and able to survive longer without food. I am also not inclined to believe that stasis causes wool block and not the other way around. Hair is not digestible, and if a rabbit ingests a lot of wool, it may block their system. A rabbit with stasis is not inclined to ingest the amount of wool required to cause a blockage.

 

[MoonSpiritMom]

Ok so... I'm new to rabbits.. but not to having livestock. If you have no intention of culling and have the room for her, I would retire her from breeding and just let her live out her days with you. I agree to others that petting her out when she might have reoccurring medical issues is not a good plan... it wont matter how well you inform a family of her medical needs, if she dies it could come back to bite you in the butt. and the last thing you need is someone tarnishing your good name. So don't give her away/sell her and don't cull. She can be your pet. I know that may not be best for the business side of things (having an animal suck resources and give nothing in return) but you clearly do not want to cull her, and breeding her again might end her life and petting her out is not a good option.. so really your only option is to kept her.

Hopefully my suggestion is helpful.

 

[imajpm]

That's not how stasis works. Gut stops or slows down for some reason, stress or illness most commonly. Water continues being absorbed from gut leaving a mass of food and hair which over time becomes a solid mass that cannot pass. Then you have wool block. I actually observed this very recently during a necropsy on a rabbit who I put down because he was dying. Anyway there are many articles written by vets that are very informative. This is a hot topic with rabbits and many have the reverse opinion. I just know I've had repeated issues with two rabbits and they recover when the gut gets moving again. Those guys are high maintenance and not suitable for breeding. Unfortunately the doe is quite nice but alas, that's how it goes.

But that's semi off topic. Question is what to do with your doe. If not cull, then keep. That's just my personal opinion and I have done it myself. I have 6 in fact, hogging up my cage space.

 

[SoftPawsRabbitry]

Okay, so. Bred Georgie in December. She lived outside throughout her pregnancy, but I brought her into the house about 4 days before she was due to kindle. She kindled fine, though not in the box, kits were healthy, happy, and well fed. Went off feed 3-4 days post kindle. I medicated her, and she's started pooping and looking for foodstuffs again. I don't know why she stopped digesting, I don't know what, exactly, got her gut moving again. I'm concerned that it was due to the stress of the kindle - some does aren't just meant to be mothers. There's a more complete timeline towards the end of this post.

Now, the question is, do I try breeding her again, and risk the same thing happening and perhaps not being able to get her going again, or do I simply pet her out? I don't want to sell her as a potential brood doe, or anything like that, when her only kindle ended like this, unless I breed her again and everything goes okay. She's not essential to my breeding program, I actually had another breeding home lined up for her after this litter. (She carries chocolate, and can't be used in my BEW line.) So as I see it, since I don't feel it is ethical to sell her as a breeding doe without testing her again, I can either breed her again, or jump right to petting her out.

Or, would it be ethical to sell her as a breeding doe, despite this experience, provided I make sure the breeder is aware of the situation? She's not a bad quality doe, she has some very desirable traits, and is out of Alaska.

Timeline :
Jan 20th Kindle
Jan 23rd Went off feed - began administering nutridrops(1cc) and simenthecone(1cc) 2x daily- administered 1 extra strength tums crushed into 5cc water - administered 1 papaya enzyme tablet crushed into 5cc water
Jan 24th began administering vegetable oil(1/2cc - 1cc) 2x daily with nutridrops and simenthecone, administered approx .5oz pellets crushed into 10cc warm water
Jan 25th teeth grinding started, administered last dose of nutridrops
Jan 26th less teeth grinding, administered last doses of simenthecone and veg oil. Doe was producing copious amounts of very foul smelling gas in the evening(I actually went looking for dog poop somewhere, it smelled so bad!)
Jan 27th very large, cylindrical poops that were slimy and very soft in the cage in the morning, continuing to produce very large poops during the day. Was seen eating oats.

As long as she keeps eating and pooping, I have no intention of culling this doe, so please do not suggest it.​

I understand the feeling of not wanting to euthanize your babies, if you can find somebody who you personally know, such as a really close friend or a family member who knows your animals and 100%understands the situation, or somebody they know, see if you can pet her out that way! I have had does who just had complications with kindling and became sterile after their first litter, I was given a half blind doe, one of which had such complications, but my friend happily took her in and she is living a happy spoiled life! There is no "cruelty" to trying to give your animal's a second chance at life, if the people receiving her completely understand that this may happen again, and that if it's a reoccurring problem she could have and it could end in needing to be put down or her passing, you're doing fine c: (I do suggest keeping it to people you know and tf trust or someone they know Cuz a PETA member in disguise took advantage of me trying to rehome a rabbit with malconcussion)